booting in 9.1 |
August, 14, 2003 11:43 AM |
powderhaus |
I have been running OSX for months, never booting back into OS9 for anything. A few weeks ago i tryed to boot into OS9.1 and i got the happy mac then it booted back to OSX with none of my XPF settings(i like to have verbose mode on, and it turned off after i attempted to boot 9). This being dd, i just figured there was something wrong with my OS9 system folder, so after a quick scan to make sure nothing obvious was missing from it i reinstalled OS9 on the drive through classic mode. Instalation and upgrade to 9.1 was fine, but when i restart into OS9 the same thing happens, i get the happyMac then it boots back into OSX, if i plug my old keyboard in and press option it will crash at the happy mac and rebooting into X is the only way to start up. I need to get back to OS9 to run some checks on my system with TTP3, and to get Verbose mode back on. If you know the terminal command for turning it on the would work too. Ryan, i think you did to good of a job with XPF ;-) |
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pbell3 |
August, 20, 2003 1:35 PM |
jseibyl |
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Okay last thing on this I will say..... wasn't going to throw around the the fact that I too use my 9500 for video editing as I thought it might be mis-interpreted, and recieve a semi confrontational retort..... BUT... Premire runs beutifully IN CLASSIC mode, my file size record for one continuous video is 29 gigs for a single file on this "in capable" mac, which crunched down without a hitch to under 4 gigs mpeg 2 muxed (yes muxed) for the DVD. I wanted to see if the machine would be able to do this, just as an experiment it did not as quickly as my editing bay, but it did not crash....and actually rendered faster than I thought it would.... I am not on Final Cut Pro yet...PhotoShop 7 great in X native, my files can get as high as 100 megs for a single image, no problem. the firewire A03 DVD burner works well to create the mpeg 2 DVD's I create, with a transfer of ~4 m/sec for the video stream. I use the open source missing mgeg toolkit and menu builder for that, and love it. I record and edit sound for my stuff with either Spark or a shareware utility called Sound Studio both are X native. I also have a dual proc editing bay on win2k and 1/2 terabyte raided, that I use for DV broadcast work, but prefer my g4 that I put together with duct tape, chewing gum, and saliva, because it works flawlessly for archiving and building the actual DVD while the larger editing bay renders. |
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pbell3 |
August, 20, 2003 12:52 PM |
marcush |
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pbell3, You are fast becoming a "Nattering Nabob of Negativity." Furthermore, in my case at least, I rebut your arguments categorically: 1)I dont' deny what you said about PRAM. It's not generally an issue for me and has a solution. 2) I have a 5 of my PCI slots filled in the following order: Sonnet Temp ATA/100 card, Ratoc Firewire/USB2.0 card, M-Audio Revolution 7.1 sound card, Zynx 10/100 ethernet, EMPTY, Original Mac Edition Radeon. It all works flawlessly. 3)I am able to Watch a DVD while ripping and burning mp3's. Speaking of MP3's the M-Audio card enabled me to convert a large collection of cassette tapes to MP3's earlier this summer. 4) I switched to ATA because the drives are cheaper and much bigger. Speed was not such an issue because DV video capture only requires a 4MB/s transfer rate. I quite succesfully use this machine with Final Cut Pro 3 and DVD Studio Pro 1.5.2., and Photoshop 7. In addition, the Tempo ATA card allows me to run iDVD on this machine for quick projects like transferring TV shows recorded on my Tivo to DVD via my Canon ZR20 Firewire camcorder. SCSI drives I reserve for the linux machines I have setup as servers. I've got two machines setup running Software RAID 5 arrays. One is a web server and the other serves MP3's and documents. 5. Continuing on with my capable legacy machine during the last two years has enabled me to upgrade my software over time while at the same time continue putting away money for the Mac I've been waiting for, i.e., the G5. In short, this has been a practical solution for me. I'm not saying it is for everyone. Just me. I've had no insurmountable problems that could not be resolved with patience and a little research. That's the last of what I have to say on this subject. |
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powderhaus |
August, 20, 2003 10:44 AM |
jseibyl |
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Think this thread is gone beyond your topic....how's it going with the CD?? |
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pbell3 |
August, 20, 2003 8:25 AM |
jseibyl |
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Plain and simple, I am not sure why other people people do this BUT the simple fact is this is fun to make things work that are not supposed to. That is where the enjoyment comes in, solving problems. With that philosophy and the Linux mantra of doing things without spending any money, it is not a matter of getting a machine to be perfect, we all know that just won't happen with these legacy systems. Can we get it to run and be stable to do what we want....for the most part yes. There is the subtle difference between the two statements. You make the assumption that people that do this expect things to be as smooth as pulling a new system out of a box and turning it on. I think you don't give enough credit to those out there that spend the time to do the research, take a good hard look at the hardware, ask questions, and then go for it with the realisation that there WILL be issues that need to be worked out. IDE vs SCSI, who cares?? If you can get it to work and you are happy with performace for what you have GREAT, if not go out and get a new machine or massage your stuff until it does work. I perhaps give everyone out there more credit for having a more open mind than you do, but my belief is that you have to have some kind of intellegence to even think about attempting this. Granted there are people who tinker that perhaps shouldn't but MARCUSH DOES know what he is talking about, just look at the past postings, buit I shall assume you have as well. I have been saying this ever since I came to this forum, each of us has different information and experience, each of us has different skill levels, each us has questions. What does it matter if a drive is IDE os SCSI if it works to the satisfaction of the owner/user? That is the bottom line, and if the owner/user can do that and offer information to others to help them get there too, then this forum is working as it is intended. Yes, I could get a G5 and yes, it would probally be flawless with regard to running, that is a self evident fact, but not the issue. I respect your abilities, you know what are talking about, but your method of communication tends to be confrontational, and that is not helpful to someone who has a mac that won't boot. |
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marcush |
August, 19, 2003 9:43 PM |
pbell3 |
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All granted, on the other hand I have given nobody a hard time. To inject that I have, and then suggest I stop it is to tell me to remove my eyeballs and forget the years of messages in this sig, that discusses these problems in excrutiating detail, and then to force me to ignore the basic facts: 1). Pram problems are central to a high percentage of legacy systems running or attempting to install OSX. 2). The vast majority of users make huge mistakes attempting to boot OSX installer disks after loading up their hardware with every googah under the sun (most of which can and does crash OSX). 3). I continue to be entertained by folks wanting to use their legacy system to watch DVD movies while compiling MP3's to CD writer (this can be done with a newer system, it is difficult to futile on a legacy system). 4). I continue to be mystified by legacy users who demand ATA controllers because it's faster (???) or because they feel that somehow forcing the OSX installer to decypher an often unknown PCI ATA interface will somehow make installation easier and their computers faster (and that their computer will now brew coffee without asking). SCSI on the other hand works quite well and offers better multi-command arbitration than ATA (that's why most Windows and Linux servers still use SCSI, and is much faster than ATA on server systems). But then oh my gosh, I can get a ATA interface for $50 bucks and a 20gig ATA HD for $70 which is dirt cheap. Last time I looked an entire 9600 was going for around $100-$150 on eBay with more than enough SCSI storage to run OSX at reasonable speed. That's just for starters. And then you're in a snit because I choose to say "Apple took legacy systems out of the equation and made it damn difficult to force the issue in the users' direction". marcush you need to have more fun with your chosen fate. I had a similar discussion with the guy that does the patches for OS-9.2.2, he defends himself by saying I can't run Final Cut Pro 3.0 on 9.1, never mind that wanting to on a legacy system means buying an awful lot of stuff which will not get passed a 50mhz data buss; and that people that have the scratch for FCP can usually buy new hardware in the same breath. I try to help here as much as possible, but you getting mad because you insisted on putting up with this stuff until you could get newer equipment while I try to inform people how to do this is really putting the cart before the horse. Eventually, OSXGURU will finish this project only to find that 90% of the systems he's attempting to support crossed the age of consent and have mostly gone to the great indian hunting grounds. I'm in the same boat on cars, I'm still limping along with a 20 year old Olds, until I can afford a newer vehicle. It's the same thing, not different. The only difference is, when people wish I could buy a newer car, I agree with them, with great enthusiasm. |
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pbell3 |
August, 19, 2003 1:58 PM |
marcush |
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Well, I've been running OSX on my Power Tower Pro since 10.1 came out and the only problems I have ever experienced with PRAM are when I have tried zapping the PRAM. I've only had to do this a few times. Namely during the two processor upgrades I've done during this time frame and if I've changed my internal configuration (swapping video cards or installing a SCSI card) to experiment. What I've seen has varied from the machine being unable to find a boot disk or no video. From these experiences I've learned to leave PRAM alone and only ZAP it as a very last resort. It usually never works anyway and often gets me into a worse case scenario. In the worse case scenarios what I end up doing is stripping the machine down my Mac Edition Radeon card, disconnecting all drives except the boot drive, and removing all RAM except for one 128MB stick and booting from an G4 emergency boot disk to retore NVRAM from a corrupted state. In the majority of cases I've only needed to boot from that floppy to get things going again. No amount of switching between OSX to OS9.x has ever caused me a problem so I can not personally verify what you have said. For whatever reason be it financial or as a hobby the people here have decided to keep their old world machines in productive use. We don't need a lecture on how New World machines are better and that we should all switch. We know that. I'm happy for you that you've found a solution for your particular frustrations. I'll be getting a G5 myself next year after Macworld SF. That does not mean my PTP is going to go into junk pile. I'll still put it to use in some capacity as long as it is capable. All I'm saying is dont' give anyone else here a hard time for their choices. Nuff said. |
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RE: booting in 9.1pbell3 |
August, 19, 2003 12:47 PM |
jseibyl |
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The experiences I have had locally with the user group I belong to and my own experiences tend to demonstrate to me at least the conclusions that I have drawn tend to be valid. I agree that Pram issues DO make up a lot of issues I see here, No need to go further here. I have never tinkered with a clone, staying with 8500s, 9500s, and a few 7300s, so I will be the first to admit my inexperience with those machines. I DO respect your abilities in reading your postings, and I do appreciate the words concerning the CD issues, I will NEVER minimise Pram issues, but if I am one of the luck minorities, then that is an interesting realization to me. nuf sed |
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RE:jseibyl |
August, 19, 2003 12:21 PM |
pbell3 |
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Baloney again. Most of these people are having enourmous problems with Pram and other related issues. While some have no problems, they are bluntly the minority. Trying to help is laudible, but it's much more helpful to speak to the many, than to the few who witness no difficulties in a given area. No problem in general, your help is appreciated, after all; you caught the CDROM problem as quickly as I did . That can be serious and damning. I ran into that myself on my Beige-g3. |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 19, 2003 10:22 AM |
jseibyl |
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Sorry to hear 'bout the CD powderhaus, that one drove me nuts for a while. Is there a possibility of putting another drive on your machine with 9?? I realise this is sort of the sledge hammer approach, but perhaps an extrnal scsi from the mainboard connecter? They are cheap these days. I have a bud who keeps 9.2 on his external scsi 2 gig and swears that that is the way to go. Granted the transfer rate is slower, but if it works, who cares. He uses it for his 3 8500's that all have jag on them, just plugging it in to the machine he needs 9 on. He is the type that likes to solder swap chipsets on pci cards and overclock Celerons running Linux, so DO consider the source....... |
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RE: booting in 9.1pbell3 |
August, 19, 2003 9:41 AM |
jseibyl |
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Just tell me why I have been flipping back and forth on my 9500 for several months without a pram zap. I understand the tech reasons of what you are saying, but I have flipped my machine AT LEAST 50 times without difficulty or pram zap, as I prefer to use my native Lino Color scanner software in 9 rather than VueScan. I haven't zapped my 9500 since I went to 10.2.3 when it first came out, nor do I hit it everytime I flip. Just telling you what I see, which is neither baloney OR embellishment. You know just as well as I that there are things that happen in doing this that defy rational explanation, SCSI ID's and non standard drives as an example. I have no need for for saying anything that is misleading, what good would that do? This forum is for sharing information, and I have every intention of doing so in the most accurate way in accordance with my observations. If your observations are different than mine, fine, but please refrain from inferences as do the validity of what I am saying. |
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jseibyl |
August, 16, 2003 11:27 AM |
pbell3 |
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Baloney. The pram is too small for proper switching between OSX and OS9. It will work until it runs out out of space (usually about 3rd cycle) then blooey, no more one or the other system. It is very important to zap pram at each cycle to retain stable operation. If you've gone too long, and it gets stuck, then reestablishing stable operation is much harder. The reason it seems stable for so many is that few change OS's often. They tend to stay in one system most of the time, and rarely run into the problem, by I change alot and ran into the problem on every occasion, sooner or later. The procedure I list is a work around that keeps things running, but it is only a work around. The real solution is for XpostFacto to manage this in both directions, correctly. I recommend the procedure used by Apple for the Beige-G3. A small piece of programming in low Pram, linking to larger parameter management on spare hard drive tracks. It will take time to get this procedure in place, until then the Zap Dance is (for many) SOP . I got out of it by getting on eBay and purchasing New World hardware for all my primary systems. I now use a iMac/DVSE at home, and a PowerBook Lombard/400 at work. No more special considerations, no Zap Dance, no "I can't get past the spinning beachball", no more sound quirks, sleep functions work, and I have a battery meter in the PowerBook. Everything works correctly. We all need to ask ourselves whether putting up with shortcomings is worth a wait of years (I mean that sincerely) or can we fix this for a few hundred dollars and a wait of weeks (at the most). That call, is entirely yours. I've already made mine. |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 16, 2003 6:45 AM |
davidma |
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I sympathize with you, because I know the feeling myself. My machine, over the last 12 hours, has gone from running OS X 10.2 (i was pleased at the speed of 10.2, but it sadly came to an end), to being wedged so hard that at various times it won't chime, won't boot off CD, or will chime and just sit there, and in all cases, won't boot either 9.1 or 10.2 off disk. I may have to dig into open firmare a bit via serial port to see what the real problem is here. Any forth experts here? |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 15, 2003 10:21 PM |
powderhaus |
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i can't boot from CDs, i have an nsupported SCSI CDROM and a Firewire CDRW. I have an extra 1GB hard drive that i had OS9 on, so it was about what you said, it had a few utilities and TechTool Pro. I only used it for TTP so now i will just wait for TTP4 to arrive before i can check my system. No biggy, i had always thought of 9 as an OS i could roll back on, but not anymore. |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 15, 2003 9:05 PM |
johnbclark |
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Actually, I don't even have OS 9 on my HD. I made a copy of the system folder and some basic necessities way before OS X, and I just boot from the internal (stock) CD with the "c" key down. Granted, it is a S L O W system running off a CD, but it is a rare occurrnece that I need it. When I want to go back, I use the XPostFacto on the CD - it quits and gives me error messages, but I get back into OSX without problems. If you want, I'll burn you a copy and throw it in the mail... |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 15, 2003 6:52 PM |
powderhaus |
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Just had a flash back, i Zapped the PRAM and the thing did not boot. Zapped it again, nothing, again and again. only took about 5 times, then it booted 9.1. Thats the last time i ever zap the pram on this computer. Before OSX i used to zap the PRAM every few months, now when i do it i am afraid that my system will not turn back on. OSX always works, but OS9 has been sketchy. I have no ore reason to boot into 9 anymore so i will not. OSX it is for me from here out. thats good because i liked OSX better anyway, so i am glad i am stuck in X than 9. (sorry but i am still pissed off from that minor dilemma) |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 15, 2003 5:56 PM |
powderhaus |
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i have known for a long time that The CD ROM drive does not boot. I have no CD ROMs that boot on any Apple Mac OS CD. the supermac one will work but that is 8.1. i would have to format the drive.... I Zapped the PRAM and hit the Cuda switch when i installed the card. Holding the Shift key does nothing, the system crashes well before that would do anyting. It crashes at the HappyMac, if i hold the shift key it crashes and will not re- boot into X, if i do not hold the shift key it re-boots into X. I remembered that i do have soem new stuff on my machine that was added after the last time i booted into 9 so i will disconnecct that stuff and see if it works. if not then i will Zap the PRAM because i do know its just me being paranoid, but still, i am being paranoid... hehe hope it works.... |
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RE: booting in 9.1pbell3 |
August, 15, 2003 1:10 PM |
jseibyl |
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Don't get me wrong, I do these upgrades as a hobby/biz, and am not shy 'bout pram but only if the obvious, like the cd itself, don't work. Before I even throw a new proc in, I ALWAYS zap just to start off with a clean slate. In all the machines I have done, over 10, the pram has been zapped. I have never had that cause issues from a warm boot zap. I did once from a cold boot when I first started doing this, but that is all part of the learning curve, and the less than perfect Sonnet disk did eventually work. My standard install uses three seperate disks 9.1, 9.2, and jag. Unless the id's are screwy or scsi termination issues, they all go back and forth between OS's smoothly. |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 15, 2003 12:39 PM |
pbell3 |
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Granted, the lasting impression. Look I've done this on 4 (count'em 1,2,3,4) legacy systems. If you cannot get your system to behave on at least one cycle between OSX and OS9, then something is wrong. Pram will usually allow at least 1 switch to OS9 with only a little quirkiness. Then you Zapp pram from OS9, then Startup Disk to OS9 (again) then restart. Voila! OS9. Pain in the neck but works on legacy systems when EVERYTHING works perfect. Apparantly something is not working as it should. I had a similar problem with my Beige-G3. Fix was to purchase a new CD-Drive (seems you already have a hinky CD- Rom). Change that, then get things copacetic again, then try the OS switch again. |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 15, 2003 8:36 AM |
jseibyl |
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Do you have another CD lying around?? I was nearly pulling teeth on my 8500, because the cd would not boot an OS 9 disk, OR Disk Warrior. It is a Mashita(sp?). I had another Sony drive on the shelf, popped it in, and was happily booting OS 9 and disk warrior. Both drives were stock from the factory, and BOTH from 8500's, but the Mashita would not run anything higher than an 8.1 disk. Last resort, if your Jag install is on a seperate drive, yank it, boot and hold down the shift key during boot. That might get you into 9. If Jag is on a partitioned disk, try the shift key during boot, OR the "C" key without a cd in. Also, one last thing, you probally know this but..... you ARE NOT supposed to zap pram from a cold boot. Sonnet mentiones this on page 3,456 of their manual in very small print so it can be easily overlooked. I assume this also applies to other procs. I have zapped a few times, and have not had the issues you describe. I don't zap everytime I switch OS's, onl;y if there is some wierd issue. |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 14, 2003 8:20 PM |
powderhaus |
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i can't boot on a CD, the only one i can is the 8.1 CD. Zapping the pram is a no. I have a TechTool copy of the pram i would use if i could boot in to os9. The reason i will not zap it is because the last time i did that with OSX installed my computer was useless, i ended up zapping the pram with the floppy and the buttons. I would use TTP to do it because i have a copy of the Pram when it worked fine, i don't really need to boot in 9 so i may wait for TTP4 to get here... I will try to boot into 8.1 then install OS8 then OS9, but that may take a while to do, and thinking about it, OS8.1 does not support HFS+. if i can't boot then i will resort to using the Sonnet floppy, but i went through hell 2 times after i zapped the PRAM. It could have been due to my attempt to install OSX but my god, when noting happens when you try to boot and after 50+ zappings of the pram and still nothing, it leaves a lasting impression. |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 14, 2003 7:12 PM |
pbell3 |
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Folks, here's a suggestion. There is NOTHING drastic about Zapping Pram on a legacy system. Pram routinely can get corrupted in an environment where OSX is part of the equation. If it were me, I'd have a bootable OS8 Floppy handy with TechTool Lite on it. Zapping all the Pram cures many problems related to switching the system when OS9 and OSX co-habitate and system switching occurs. Zap the pram, then using OS9 Startup Disk, select OS9 on the hard drive. Then go about your business, prepared to do this everytime you switch systems. That's how I do it, and it stops this kind of behavior. Good luck! |
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RE: booting in 9.1 |
August, 14, 2003 6:59 PM |
voxxdigital |
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Have you tried booting from OS9 CD then installing OS9? Or even more drastic, zapping the PRAM? |
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