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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 23, 2002 3:57 PM |
powderhaus |
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What i ment was built in Memory i know you cant remove it but there may be a way to disable it. I have a J700that is based on an 8500 (i know that it may be different) and it came with 16mb built into the motherboard (not in the normal slots, but permenently attached) and 8 in the normal slots. This could be the problem. I have 10.1.5 right now but i will try the program that is posted and tel you what i get |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 23, 2002 3:30 AM |
avit |
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Argh! HERE! |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 23, 2002 3:26 AM |
avit |
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Sorry, I gave you a bogus link. Try this< /a> instead. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 23, 2002 3:24 AM |
avit |
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I googled and found memtest, which might work. I can't check it out myself as my OSX system is down right now. Let us know if it works? |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 22, 2002 10:37 PM |
gx77 |
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>>do you hav any on the motherboard? OWCs memory only has to be >>better than what apple used in these Computers. I hope this gets >>solved before my 10.2 comes :) I don't get what you mean by that... I'll clarify: the 32 MB of Ram that shipped with my computer is no longer in my computer. I have all "new" ram (ram purchased over the last 5 or so years, most of it from OWC in the last year and a half) in my computer. It's ALL on the motherboard, but I don't think thats what you were asking because that's the only place that you can put ram in an 8500. I'm out of town for Novell ZEN training this week, but when i get back home I'm going to try testing the RAM with Guage Pro to see if it's more picky than GURU is. Then, i'll call sonnet to see if they have any suggestions- not that i expect they will. I asked this before, but i didn't get a response, so i'll ask again: does anyone know of an application that tests RAM integrity that runs in *nix or natively in X? I don't care if it's a GUI or command line util, just so i don't have to boot into 9 just to verify that my ram is OK. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 22, 2002 6:22 PM |
powderhaus |
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do you hav any on the motherboard? OWCs memory only has to be better than what apple used in these Computers. I hope this gets solved before my 10.2 comes :) |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 22, 2002 6:00 PM |
gx77 |
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I don't have any of the original apple memory in my machine- i took it out so i could put 128 MB chips in. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 22, 2002 2:01 PM |
powderhaus |
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What about removing the origanal factory installed memory? OWCs should be better than that, maybe thats the problem. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 21, 2002 5:52 PM |
avaughs |
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I too have an XLR8 based upgrade card, the SSE card with a 450 MHz G4 CPU. I have a non-SSE Carrier card also, but I don't want to risk it in my 9600 since I have the lower slots filled with USB/FireWire and FastSCSI cards. The video card is in the middle of the upper 3 PCI slots and is a Radeon 7000. I've expierenced crashes less frequently outside of browser use from a non- admin account. I can repeat and complete actions from this account that caused the admin enabled account to crash. There has got to be come connection between the crashes and the privs an account has (groups it is a part of). |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 21, 2002 2:29 PM |
OSXGuru |
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krevnik: What did you do to modify the "delay line". Perhaps that is an option that I could add, either to XPostFacto or L2CacheConfig. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 21, 2002 8:11 AM |
gx77 |
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I have a sonnet g4/400, so it's not limited to xlr8 cards. Only started experiencing crashes after installing 3 OWC 128 MB 4k refresh DIMMS and upgrading to 10.2... I realize (and loathe) the fact that since I did a simultaneous upgrade to both it's harder to trace whether or not it's a jag issue or an OWC ram issue. Also, contrary to what avit said earlier, it is possible to remove the motherboard cache on an 8500- in fact, it's recommended. I haven't tried re-installing it yet cause frankly, i'm sick of screwing with this crap, but it can be done. I get crashes outside a browser, but not as frequently. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 20, 2002 5:54 PM |
marcush |
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Everyone, I think my machine meets all of the conditions you are asking about. Here are my specs: Power Tower Pro 225, Sonnet G4 800/1MB L3, 1Gig RAM (6x OWC 128MB 4k refresh, 2x OWC 128MB 2k refresh), Acard ATA/133, ATTO UL2D UltraSCSI 160, Ratoc Firewire/USB 2.0, Macsense 10/100 Ethernet, ATI Radeon Mac Edition PCI 32MB (Original not 7k), 3dfx Voodoo 5 5500. I have Chimera, IE5.2.2, Mozilla, and Netscape 7 installed. I can leave the machine running for days with either browser running and not have either a system freeze or kernel panic. The problems I mentioned before with the XLR8 G4 450 were definitely memory related. One pair of the OWC 4k refresh RAM would not run in the machine with the XLR8 G4 450 installed. Even without those two DIMMs installed I could not interleave my RAM without the Power Computing L2 cache inserted in it's logic board slot. Since I got the Sonnet card I've been able to reinstall the two DIMMs that gave me trouble originally and I've since added two more to bring me up to 1Gig. So far no stability problems have manifested. Maybe I'm just lucky as this problem seems that it might be pervasive. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 20, 2002 4:27 PM |
powderhaus |
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kbata what kind of prossesor do you have? I think it might be the prossesor that is giving everyone the problem. Almost everyone has an XLR8 prossesor. You may have set you switches off just by a little (i don't have one so i don't really know how they work) and this is messing up the timing between your CPU and everything else. Just a thought (i hope my J700 with a sonnet g4400 404mbram 2 are owc's and a radeon mac edition work) Jim |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 20, 2002 12:08 PM |
earlyd |
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kbata, please describe your system. This might help us pin point the problem. TIA. --Dwight |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 20, 2002 10:21 AM |
kbata |
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I've been running Jaguar since it was released and have never had a freeze. I've had one kernel panic since then. THe only problems I've had have been with sound cutting out one in a while. Other than that it's been solid. PM8500 768 meg OWC ram 6X128 ATI Mac Radeon Atto UL2d SCSI 2 18 gig Quantum 10KII drives Orange USB 2.0/Firewire Combo Card |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 20, 2002 9:50 AM |
earlyd |
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Here the status on my system. BACKGROUND: 8600/200 with Powerlogix G4/450 and lots of SCSI drives, ATI 128 video card. Pre-Jaguar, no freezes. Using IE & Mozilla freeze system. Mozilla w/in 30 seconds. Booted in 9.1 ran Gauge Pro, found 3 (!) 128MB memory modules reporting errors. Sigh! Removed said modules. Jaguar stable until web browsing with either IE or Mozilla. Finally, tried OmniWeb 4.1.1. NO FREEZES with OmniWeb since last weekend (12 Oct). Tried the latest Mozilla 1.2A and one of its overnight builds on last Thursday (17 Oct). Still freezes, but after about 10 minutes. So, with in tolerance (at least to Jaguar) memory modules and using OmniWeb, I'm not having any freezes. (I have all my fingers crossed as well as my toes, which, quite frankly, smart a little.) Comments? --Dwight |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 20, 2002 8:28 AM |
mitch707 |
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This RAM thing: I'm running all 768mb of RAM from OWC "128mb, 168 Pin Mac 5v DIMM's 60ns 4k FPM EDO (2k per bank)". The '(2k per bank)' got added to the description about a year ago in what I guess was a response to the 2k/4k question. I'm assuming these sticks are in fact operating @ 2k. Of course you know what they say about 'assume'. This is just an FYI, I'm not running 10.2 yet. I'm waiting to see how this question/thread pans out. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 19, 2002 4:27 PM |
Tony.Scaminaci |
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Has anyone tried the October 2002 ATI update with the Radeon card? This update supposedly fixes the scrambled video problem when waking from sleep. Would be curious to know if the update has any effect on the freezes that virtually all of us are getting. One other note: I have four machines running OS 10.2.1 at home and at work. Three of the four are B&W or Graphite G4's (fully supported) and the remaining one is the 9500 with the Radeon and Sonnet 450 G4 cards. The only machine that has ever frozen under 10.2.1 is the 9500. I have a Radeon 8500 card in my Graphite G4 and it has never frozen. It's possible that the XPF extensions could be the source of these freezes on unsupported machines. Let's face it - Apple doesn't support these machines. Ryan's done an excellent job but the nature of software development is that strange things can happen even with high-quality software. If anyone has been running 10.2.1 on an unsupported machine without a single freeze, we'd like to hear from you. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 19, 2002 2:24 PM |
avit |
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I removed my Radeon card. I'd like to report that my system is now stable in 10.2 with web browser. I'm posting this from Chimera, which was very prone to crash the system previously but everything seems solid after hammering on it for a good half-hour. I hope I'm not speaking too soon, but it's always crashed much earlier than this before. It's noticeably slower through onboard video. Anyone else running a Radeon in an OldWorld Mac with Jag? Try running Chimera... |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 19, 2002 5:49 AM |
drc |
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F.Y.I. >Can you reproduce this problem? Regularly & erratically. There's no pattern to my lock-ups that I can see. >Do you have a Radeon card? Ironically I just got one because after I upgraded my RAM (all cheap OWC) & CPU (800 MHz Sonnet) my 3dfx card ceased working in X (but not in 9, in 9 my Twin Tubo card produced a weird cursor with weird limitation in its movement). The Radeon card has worked fine for the 24 hours it has been installed. Do you have 2k or 4k refresh RAM? FPM or EDO? Ten 128 MB 4K FPM OWC sticks plus two unknown 64 MB sticks. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 19, 2002 5:10 AM |
avit |
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Things we've discovered about what causes this crash so far: (I'm not addressing other points such as Firewire, because I believe those to be an issue of their own. I'm running a relatively clean setup here and I have this very specific problem without adding any newfangled weird peripherals. No IDE, no iPod, no USB, no Firewire.) 1. Cause: Jaguar. Web browser. Lock-up. More often sooner than later. 2. It's not specific to any single Mac logic board. Known to be affected: 8500, 7600, 9600, and a PTP (marcush, I think?) 3. It's not specific to any single upgrade card. PowerLogix G4/450, XLR8 G4/ 450, and Sonnet G3/400 are mentioned. Card settings such as bus speed, cache speed and write-thru have no effect. I'm not talking about settings that would crash your machine in other situations, but rather settings that work everywhere else but in 10.2 when you run a browser. 4. It affects clean installations of Jaguar. (I tried). 5. It affects admin and non-admin users alike. I tested this. This is not simply a user privilege issue. It wouldn't lock up the entire system bus if that were the case. 6. Motherboard cache. Installing PowerComputing cache and disabling it using CacheControl has apparently resolved it for one of us, but installing Apple cache did not fix anything for my 7600. In fact, OS 9 hates it but X doesn't mind. For those with 85/86/95/9600s, sorry, you can't even remove or replace your cache to try this. 7. Radeon or other PCI video card. One of us reports stability after going back to on-board video (or using the browser on the non-accelerated screen). I have a Radeon 7000 and this is something I haven't yet messed with, so I will report back about that. Does anyone else have stability with a Radeon, or any pos/neg feedback about other vid cards? Something else I'd like to know since William Montgomery brought up the thought: has the driver version for Radeon changed between 10.1.5 and 10.2? If someone could send me a copy of their kext from 10.1.5, I'd like to compare them and see if 10.2 will run with the older driver. 8. RAM. Interleaving makes no difference for me, but I would tend to place my bets on the RAM refresh rate. Maybe that's just because it's one of the last things I haven't tried and I'm getting desperate. Unofrtunately I have no 2K RAM to test with. William.Montgomery writes that he doubts this to be an issue. I can't argue your logic on this William, but remember that a while ago Apple issued firmware updates that disabled some people's RAM. Presumably they had a valid reason for doing that, maybe so that future operating systems (here we are!) would tolerate it. Perhaps us OldWorld guys need to be more picky about our RAM too? What else have YOU tried that worked/didn't work? Please report either way so that we can all benefit: Can you reproduce this problem? Do you have a Radeon card? Do you have 2k or 4k refresh RAM? FPM or EDO? Thanks everyone. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 18, 2002 12:36 PM |
krevnik |
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I had Jaguar freeze on me a couple of times, and after updating to 10.2.1, I don't freeze anymore... BUT, I have gotten two KPs in two days from 10.2.1 I was typing in Chimera one time, and the other I was mucking with some stuff in the Finder. However, one thing about my own G4 upgrade is that the bus, CPU multiplier and delay line are all configurable on the board. I overclocked the card to 450Mhz from 400Mhz (stable after a day's uptime, running at 100F under a really heavy load, 82F when idle). The machine started to stutter a lot with video and I was getting the KPs. I wound up modifying the delay line so that it was nearly 0ns, and everything is working great now and no KPs. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 17, 2002 12:15 PM |
marcush |
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I know of no other differences between the Apple and Power Computing Cache DIMMs. I really don't know technically how a disabled cache would help with buffering either. I could not explain it. All I do know for certain is that my stability problems with the XLR8 G4/450 went away after I put the cache back in. I never considered reinstalling the cache as an option as it is counterintuitive to what was common knowledge concerning G3 and G4 cpu upgrades. The admin account hypothesis seems plausible as a cause of the problem but what characteristic of the admin account that could be causing your system freezes is a mystery. Since we are discussing admin accounts I would put for a possible, though simplistic, solution. That is to run verify permissions from the disc utility and then repair whatever it finds, if anything. I have had freezes, of the DVD player for instance, that locked up my machine. IE is known to require a permissions fix after the updates are installed. I make it standard procedure to fix permissions after any installation. Perhaps it will reveal an issue with the /System/Library/Extensions directory where the .kext files are kept. I think this has helped stability as well. This is just speculation on my part but it may be worth investigating. It seems to me that if this was a problem with OSX itself we would see reports of the same problem from new Macs as well. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 17, 2002 9:19 AM |
William.Montgomery |
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I'm not really buying into the 'memory is the problem' finger pointing. After all machine code just reads and writes to memory and just because the code is different as in 10.2 the machine still just reads and writes to memory. The only way the 'code' should affect memory is if it alters the refresh or access timing by changing the memory controller parameters or perhaps doing something really stupid like messing with the interrupt priorities such that DMA xfers and such corrupt memory. Anyway, I've got an 8500 with a Sonnet G3/400 and a ATI Radeon 7000 running 10.2. If I run with monitors on both the onboard and ATI videos, AND run either Netscape or IE my machine will hang several times a day. This actually only occures if the browser window is located on the ATI screen. If I run either browser only on the on-board video screen it is rock solid. It really looks to me like this is a problem with the ATI Radeon driver that is showing up only when certain browser triggered software is executed (Java?). So for now I'm running 'single screened' with on-board only and life is good but a little screen realestate challanged. Bill... |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 17, 2002 8:32 AM |
gx77 |
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I've got my original l2 cache removed, because everyone noted speed decreases and instability with it still installed. I've also had most of my crashes occur in a browser, but not all. It'll freeze up while doing other things, but more often than not, it's in a browser. |