2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 28, 2003 3:49 AM |
tconway735 |
My 9600/500 G3 (temporarily back to 300 G3) has two internal hard drives, an 18 GB and a 2 GB, with an 80 GB external FW. I got my feet wet in X.1 on my son's iMac and decided to try X.2.3 on the 2 gig using xPostFacto and 9.2.2 using OS9 helper on the 18 gig. It went very smoothly and after immersing myself for a few weeks, I'm committed to X. My plan was to now partition the 18 to approximately 13 gig for OSX and the balance (4.5) for OS9. I thought I might use the other 2 GB internal to install both systems as bootable backup OSes. I backed up everything I needed to the FW drive, cleared as much unnecessary stuff off the 2 gig, leaving only 10.2.3 and proceeded to install 9.1 updated to 9.2.1 and finally 9.2.2. Both 9 and X boot fine with about 560 MB left over. I was ready to initialize, partition and then install the systems to the 18 gig. I did a low level format, zeroing all data over night and all appeared well the next morning. On the smaller partition I installed 9.1 then 9.2.1 but 9.2.2 wouldn't install with several tries. I thought I wouldn't worry too much about it, as I would still be able to install OSX on the 13 gig partition. To make a long story a tiny bit shorter, X wouldn't install because not supported etc. ( I seem to remember that message on my original successful install although it did anyway but I didn't see how this time) and the other partition with 9 got worse and worse. I wound up initializing, reinstalling and wasn't able to even get 9.1 to boot and not freeze. I've done disk first aid and Tech Tool Pro and the disk always comes up OK. I tried initializing the 18 gig without partitioning and I tried installing 8.5 and still the same freezing issues. After a long day of trying everything I could think of and reading this forum, I'm at a loss. Maybe because I erased the original disk that contained xPostFacto is the cause of the problem? BTW I'm not stuck on the partitioning scheme, 9 on the 2 gig and X on the 18 sounds fine to me also. Sorry for the lengthy post. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
February, 01, 2003 8:49 PM |
tconway735 |
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Thanks for tthe link, Mark. It was informative reading. Couldn't get there first two tries and then spotted the space between / and drives. No problem now. http://sciencequest.org/support/computers/mac/topics/drives.html |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 31, 2003 11:44 PM |
tpmco |
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To anyone interested-- Here's a link to a worthwhile site for Mac hard drive set up and maintenance http://sciencequest.org/support/computers/mac/topics/ drives.html See other links within this site for partitioning, maintence, etc. Mark |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 31, 2003 6:36 PM |
tpmco |
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Hello again tconway... I did mean forum, but then again, there seems to be a good audience right here, and I'm learning a lot from all of you people, so I'll share what works for me. Mark |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 31, 2003 11:49 AM |
tconway735 |
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Mark- I appreciate your comments on partitioning strategy. They sound very logical and I will definitely incorporate them. I WAS going to preface with "this should maybe be on another thread", but figured it was pretty closely related, I had already given a lot of info on my setup AND I was getting real good answers right here. Kinda like when I talk with the local Apple Genii, who are not encouraged to be too supportive of pre-G3 systems, let alone unsupported upgrades, (yet have been extremely helpful & knowledgable) and then ask JUST ONE MORE question? BTW, did you mean another thread rather than another forum? -thanks, TAC Hi Dan- I'll hopefully find out within a couple of weeks if I have problems with my 18 similar to yours. I doubt it, as pointed out here and read by me in other forums and articles, it's NOT an issue with SCSI, only ATA or IDE. Yours must be another issue. The cable adapter is probably to go from a wide (or ultra wide?) 80 pin drive to a narrow (or narrow/fast?) 50 pin SCSI port. I know I read about it, but since it didn't apply to my situation at the present time, it didn't stay with me. I'll let you know how it goes with my 18, if you're interested? |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 30, 2003 11:13 PM |
dcoyle |
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Tempest, Sorry, but your are wrong - in my case, anyway. I can guarantee you (from many frustrating hours of trying) that you can not install OS X on my 18 GB drive without first partitioning it so that the first partition is <= 8.000 GB. In general, you are probably right since every reference I've found refers to ATA drives. The drive I have is a 7200 rpm Quantum and came supplied with an 80-pin to 50-pin (I believe) adaptor. Could this be the difference? I certainly don't know, but it really points out the fact that your mileage can vary a lot. Dan |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 30, 2003 10:10 PM |
tpmco |
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Hello again t conway... Just a note (doesn't really belong in this forum) on partitioning strategies. I used to run six partitions on a 4.5 gb internal hard drive of various sizes, one of which was a 500 mb partition just for virtual memory, and right below the Mac OS 9 partition. That was before OS X came along. Now I run 3 partitions on a 9 gb scsi drive--4 gb on the first (outer) partition for OS X (required) and its applications; 3.5 gb on the middle partition for applications, data, and storage; and a 1 gb partition on the inside for OS 9.1 and 9.2 (classic). OS 9 is so fast anymore, that even on the slowest (inner) partition there is plenty of speed. Any blowups from accidental scsi conflicts, weird downloads from the internet, or other mishaps in the system partitions rarely affect my data, storage, and most used applications. So if a bad crash does occur, I can just erase the affected system partition, reload, and go if Disk First Aid can't fix it. Usually the reload comes from the storage folder on the middle partition (which includes essential updaters). It's always a good idea to back up your data and prized software ELSEWHERE (like the second internal drive) too, just in case. You can be more creative with the larger capacity hard drives we have today. And using aliases on your system partition desktops for applications and data which actually reside on the apps/data/ storage volume makes life ever so simple. Good luck, and thanks for the topic--Mark |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 30, 2003 9:34 PM |
tconway735 |
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Well. The problem MAY be solved. I changed the 2 gig to go on the 0 bus, 0 ID and double checked termination after finding out the correct settings from Seagate tech support and following their instructions, did another low-level format and reinstalled 9.1. Freeze within seconds of booting up. (What a luxury having 9 and X working contentedly away in 2 little gigs on the other drive). I tried booting up from Disk Warrior again and got the message that this disk could not be used and to update to the latest drivers or something like that. I called Seagate back, got the same tech and when he heard that, said the drive was probably bad. It was only bought Dec. 2001 so is well under warranty, send it back and they'll send a replacement. I believe when I get it back, I'll be able to do what I wanted, and thanks to the help offered by all, I'll be able to do it better and with more confidence. You got me focused on the drive rather than the software issues I was supposing. I read a lot about scsi and narrow and fast and wide and termination and internal and internal/external buses. Wish it had a future :-) Thanks to all! BTW, if anyone wants to comment on my partitioning strategy, please feel free. The restored 18 GB, the fastest 75% for 10.2.3 and the other 25% for 9.2.2 or whichever 9 is best. I'll just keep the 2 GB with those systems as they are, updating as appropriate, as bootable back ups. Everything else goes on the 80 GB FW. I read a lot regarding partitioning on forums, articles etcetera and spoke to several knowledgable people. Suggestions ranged from like 6 or 7 to none and all had their points. The points that stuck with me were a) 9 and X on separate p. is advisable, b) both OSes, but esp. X like a lot of room, and everything Apple installs should be kept together, c) I'm leaving 9 and embracing X way faster than I ever thought I would. (Maybe I should rethink that 75/25 strategy). Cheers, TAC PS I add my sincere appreciation to Ryan |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 30, 2003 12:20 AM |
tempest |
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The 8GB limit only applies to IDE drives, not SCSI. |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives-whoops |
January, 29, 2003 11:02 PM |
dcoyle |
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I should have said that my 18GB drive was id 1. |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 29, 2003 10:56 PM |
dcoyle |
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tconway, You have a very similar setup to what I have 7500/G3-300, 6GB (id 0), 18GB (id 0), and 80 GB Firewire. Lots of good advice from the other posters, but the crucial thing I see missing is that you have to install OS X on a partition within the first 8GB of your hard drive. 13 GB definitely won't cut it. If you poke around enough in this forum and elsewhere, you will soon come to realize something that caused me a lot of grief: 8GB can mean a lot of things. One of the things it doesn't mean is 8192MB. IIRC, it means 8000MB or less. Going strictly from memory, so I could be wrong, if you partition your drive from OS X (your 2GB drive) and you enter 8GB as the size of your first partition, you will get 8192MB. I suspect you could use the OS X disk utility and put in a safe number, say 6 or 7 GB, and you'd be OK. What I ended up doing was formatting the partition from OS 9, where (again from memory) you can enter 8.000MB as the size of your first partition, assuming you are going for the maximum boot partition possible. Remember, this has to be the FIRST partition. The second partition can be any size you want. At this point, you can probably install X with no problems. If you do have a problem where the install CD boots, but then errors out, you may have an issue that I had that I haven't seen anywhere else; namely any XPF version later than 2.2.1 would not work. If that is the case, download 2.2.1 to run the install, then you can start using the latest version of XPF. Keep in mind you can always install the latest kexts from XPF even on an older X partition. For what it's worth, I would recommend installing OS 8 or 9 first, then X on top. What I ended up with was OS 9.2.2/OS X on my 6GB drive, the same on the first 8GB of my 18GB drive, and a 10GB OS 9.2.2/scratch partition. I have found that Classic seems to be more stable if it is running in the same partition as my current OS X session. Good luck, Dan |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 29, 2003 3:06 PM |
tconway735 |
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Very helpful, Mark. I don't know yet whether it will solve the problem, but I was reading as much as I could find about scsi- chains, internal & external, numbers and termination etc. and you gave me some answers that weren't clear to me from what I found. Before, I tried resetting the cuda, didn't change anything. I just got back from talking to a Genius at the Apple store and he thought the scsi issues were probably OK because they were OK before. He recommended Disk Warrior and I've heard a lot of good things about it, planned on getting it soon anyway so I purchased a copy. Unfortunately, didn't help a bit. However, I did manage to get from him that the 0 bus was the internal and scsi bus 1 was the external. Never answered whether the two internal scsi drives being on separate buses could be the problem. Apple system profiler says what my machine has: SCSI bus 0: ID 1 is the 18 GB Seagate Barracuda SCSI bus 0: ID 3 is the CD Rom drive. SCSI bus 1: ID 0 is the 2 GB Quantum Fireball SCSI bus 1: ID 4 is an internal 1 GB Jaz SCSI bus 1: ID 6 is an external 100 MB Zip What you said makes sense to me, the two internal HDs on the internal bus and the CD (is already where it's supposed to be). LVD and IBM not applicable here. But yet the drive acting up is the one on bus 0 and the one that's performing above and beyond the call of duty is on bus 1. I'm going to open it up and see if I can put everything where it's supposed to be, correct IDs and termination etc. Gulp. |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 29, 2003 12:20 AM |
tpmco |
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It sound to me like you should have both the 2 gb and 18 gb scsi drives running on scsi bus 0--the internal bus. Forget about the scsi bus 1. It is the same bus as the external bus, and is half the speed of the internal bus. There should be 2 connectors (50 pin) for the hard drives plus a third connector for the CDROM drive on the internal bus cable-- scsi bus 0. Make sure the last drive (physical) on the chain is termination enabled, and make sure that the scsi id's are all different on this bus. Select your OS 9 startup drive in the startup disk control panel. Only start OS X from OS 9 with the xpostfacto application. Once you are booted into OS X, it will boot to X every time unless YOU change startup disk in X back to OS 9. In which case, use xpostfacto again to get back to X. I would follow tempest's recommendation to enable SE (single ended) mode for any LVD drive. I'm not sure about unit attention disable for the ibm's--haven't hit this bump yet :-). I'm not sure how to disable termination on the CDROM drive, but I have not had a problem with whatever was stock on that drive (stock Apple 12X). Hope this helps--Mark |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 28, 2003 11:35 PM |
tconway735 |
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Thanks, guys. I haven't opened up the machine yet as I'm suspecting maybe a software issue as previously all was running fine. I recall reading in this forum about not starting X from XPF could cause the OS9 folder to become unblessed. Since being erased from the 18 gig and using Startup Disk control panel instead, maybe on startup the CPU is messed up on which OS9 folder to start up from as I do have 9.2.2 (running fine) on the 2 gig. Dunno? If the software issues don't solve it, the hard disk (Seagate Barracuda 36ES) itself could be the culprit, although disk first aid and TT Pro both said it was OK. The two SCSI chains are the internal for a hard disk array and the external for up to seven devices according to the manuals for 8600/9600. |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 28, 2003 10:18 PM |
yeh |
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Doesn't the 9600 have 2 scsi buses as well? I know my 8600 has 2 scsi buses. If you have 2 scsi cables running off of your motherboard, then it may be running as 2 separate scsi chains. |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 28, 2003 5:57 PM |
tempest |
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Then ensure you have your CD-ROM connected (its termination disabled), and your hard disk at the very last connector (HD's active termination enabled; SE, if LVD drive, enabled; SCA/Wide adapter with its upper 8-bits terminated, if LVD drive) and try again. Disconnect your 2GB drive and firewire drive. I have a feeling it's your hard disk. What model is it? |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 28, 2003 3:30 PM |
tconway735 |
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Thanks for your thoughts, tempest. The original tech was wrong in that description, as corrected by the Apple Genius and you. Maybe he just used the name to relate the SCSI number assigned, perhaps determining which the CPU finds first? Anyways, they are both definitely SCSI. |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 28, 2003 2:57 PM |
tempest |
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Setting a drive as "master" implies it's an IDE drive and since you didn't mention anything about an IDE card installed. You need to make sure what kinds of drives you have--are they all SCSI, or some IDE? You can get that information from the drives' manufacturers websites. |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 28, 2003 12:12 PM |
tconway735 |
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Thanks Tempest. No, I haven't rearranged any disks. The 18 is a Seagate and the 2 is a Quantum Fireball. All was fine, and actually is fine with both running from the 2 gig so far. When I first got this machine a few months ago as a replacement for my 7500, I had an Apple authorized tech install the 18 gig, int Jaz, memory, cards etc. from the 7500 to the 9600. He set it up with the 18 as the master (an Apple Genius from my local Apple store said that wasn't relevant). Maybe that's an issue or the fact that XPF was erased from the 18 and the OS got "unblessed"? As you can see, I'm very confused :-? |
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RE: 2 Internal SCSI Hard Drives |
January, 28, 2003 4:20 AM |
tempest |
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Did you take out your 2GB disk? i.e. have you rearranged your hard disks in any way? Termination, etc. Who makes your 18GB? If IBM, disable unit attention. Enable SE mode if it's an LVD drive and you're not using a SCSI card that supports LVD. SCA/wide drives connected to the fast-narrow bus requires a special adapter if the drives are LVD. OS X is very picky about termination. |
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