OS X and "Bad" memory |
January, 29, 2003 10:47 PM |
ken882 |
Hi, In reading this forum, I've seen a lot of mention of "bad" memory and how OS X is "picky" about memory. It's possible that my system freezes are related to memory, but I haven't finished ruling out other causes yet. But in the meantime, could someone clarify what aspects of memory cause these problems? Is it truely parts of the DIMM that are non-functional (like bad blocks on a disk), or is it memory that's a bit slower than rated, or something else? I'm using 60 ns 128 Mb EDO DIMMs in my J700, and both the people from Sonnet and the people at OWC where I bought the memory say that there should be no problem with this memory. What I'd especially be interested in is some sort of test utility that could tell me if there really is something about my memory that makes it unsuitable for use by OS X. OS 9.1 runs fine on the machine, by the way. Thanks. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 19, 2003 7:22 AM |
ken882 |
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Since my memory only causes problems when running OS X, is there a version of Gauge Pro that runs under OS X? For that matter, is there any memory testing software that I can run to test memory under OS X? I get system freezes, but they aren't so bad that I can't run OS X at all. So I should be able to run an OS X hosted memory tester if one if available. Thanks. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 19, 2003 6:40 AM |
ken882 |
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Paul, According to the J700 User's Guide, "You can expand your SuperMac J700 computer up to 1040 MB, including 16MB on the main logic board". Since the J700 has 8 memory slots, this seems to mean that 128 Mb DIMMs are O.K. I'll look into Sonnet's memory; even if it's more expensive, at least if it doesn't work, I should have more leverage complaining to Sonnet if their own memory doesn't work. Ken |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 19, 2003 12:20 AM |
paul_findley |
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P.S. Ken, It's amazing Sonnet says original spec will work, because minimum original spec on my 7500 would be 70nS 4k refresh, and I seriously doubt that would be OK. Interestingly, 128MB modules are not stated in Apple's original spec for the 7500 (don't know if they updated it). Officially, only up to 64MB modules was mentioned, but people observed that 128MB worked fine when they became available. Is 128MB officially supported in the J700? |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 19, 2003 12:14 AM |
dklaus |
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Jim, Guage Pro has always been an ok application for me. I have seen it conflict with Virtual PC and one other program where it would freeze on startup. I would suggest booting with extensions off or at least an OS Only set. It should come up and display basic information on your CPU and memory. The memory test is available from the Menu or by pressing Command-M. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 19, 2003 12:10 AM |
paul_findley |
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Ken, I have 2 x 128 4k refresh and 2 x 64 2k refresh, all side by side, so non-interleaved, starting from the highest numbered slot, so total 384MB. All OWC. 4 empty slots. It wouldn't surprise me if I add more, that the 2 x 128's might get even more touchy. If I have to replace them all with 64, and if interleaving will be tolerated, then my 7500's 8 slots = 512MB max. If I can leave the 2 x 128 in there, then 640MB max. I won't buy any more 64 modules until the price drops significantly. I've spent enough on this dinosaur! You might have better luck buying 128MB modules from Sonnet, but they are probably more expensive than OWC. Remember if you fill up with them for 1GB total, your computer has to tolerate them being interleaved. I'm assuming J700 interleaves, but I don't know. Good luck! |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 18, 2003 11:57 PM |
ken882 |
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Paul, Your story about the 128 Mb DIMMs is interesting. Someone referred me to the ramjet site (memory vendor). On that site, there is mention that they only recommend 64 Mb 2K refresh DIMMs for machines with processor accelerators. Of course, when I mentioned this to Sonnet, they said that their accelerators work with any memory that meets the original specs of the machine. I've been busy with other things recently, but I'll investigate getting 64 Mb DIMMs. Just curious, how much memory do you have now, and in what sizes? I have 8 slots in my J700, what would you suggest that I try? Thanks, Ken |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 17, 2003 10:51 AM |
jimgwalsh |
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Question about "Guage Pro". Every time I launch it in 9.1 or 9.2 it freezes and I have to reboot. any suggestions. Thanks Jim 9600 XLR8 G4/450 |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 17, 2003 12:02 AM |
dklaus |
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I thought I would add my experiences with RAM on my 9600. I have a 9600 with Newer G3/500 and now running 704 MB of RAM. I've been having problems including trying to get OS X installed, and finally thought to check memory. My two tests are Newer's Guage Pro and TechTool Pro 3 - both run in OS 9. For me, the Guage Pro memory test has always been good at finding bad memory, and sure enough it found errors on it's first pass. I tried TTP 3.0.6 and it didn't find anything. I checked and found that TTP is now at 3.0.9 - and running that version DID find memory problems also. I identifed the pair of bad DIMM's (I have all interleaved memory) and I hope I'm back to a stable system. Anyway, my recomendation is if you are running TTP 3 and checking memory, upgrade to it (it's free) to 3.0.9! And download Newer's Guage Pro (free also from OWC's tech area) and cross check with it. FWIW |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 12, 2003 3:12 AM |
paul_findley |
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After a long process of elimination, I had to return all but two of the owc 128MB modules and exchange them for 64MB 2k refresh. It didn't matter which two. My computer just wouldn't tolerate more than two of them (interleaved or not). After complaining to Larry about the restock fee on a downgrade/exchange, he refunded that. 7500, Sonnet G4 800, 10.2.3 (original problem seen at 10.2). But the 128's worked fine with owc 400MHz G3, xlr8 carrier, 10.1.5. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 08, 2003 5:05 PM |
Tony.Scaminaci |
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Techtool Pro 4 is due out in April, I believe. Micromat's website has more information about the upcoming release. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 08, 2003 1:30 PM |
ken882 |
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midd33, So there's no version of TechTools for OS X yet? That might explain why I couldn't find it at the local computer store a week or so ago. I think that a cache-testing tool as well as one that could test all of the installed memory would be very useful for me, since I don't have enough solid diagnostic information to implicate the memory, cache, or CPU card to get any one of the manufacturers to pay much attention to my problem. Thanks. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 07, 2003 5:18 PM |
midd33 |
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I take it there's no way to test L2/L3 cache in X, at least untl TechTool comes out? I have TT for OS 9 but nothing but Sonnet's metronome reports the Crescendo 800 board properly. ASP, Norton's System Info, TTPro all report it as a 450Mhz w/ no L2 or L3. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 06, 2003 11:41 PM |
ken882 |
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Dwight, Thanks for the suggestion about buying the good quality memory. If I knew it would work, then I'd gladly spend the money. I'll probably do it anyway, making sure that I buy from a place that will let me return it if it doesn't work for me (whether or not it is actually "bad" or not). But even if I get my system running well, I'd still be curious to know exactly what it is about the "cheap" memory that makes it not work. Perhaps some of the cheap 60 ns memory is actually running at 70 ns? I have no idea. Thanks again, Ken |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 06, 2003 12:55 PM |
earlyd416 |
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Ken, good question. I'm not a computer technician, nor a computer/electrical engineer. (I’m an aeronautical engineer with an MBA so I’m really out of the technical arena here.) However, that being said, everything that I’ve read indicates one of two things - bad hardware or buggy program. When it first happened to me upon my initial use of 10.2, my freezes occurred running Mozilla after about 5-6 minutes. I was using the nightly builds, which were quite stable. So, assuming Mozilla was to blame, I switched to IE. Well, it took 3 hours of having IE loaded before the system froze. Then, I did like everybody else does, search the net and/or remove boards & memory modules. The good news for me was I discovered my freezes were due to two bad memory modules. Once they were out, the system ran like a charm. So, unless you went cheap on a PCI card or have a hard drive that’s flaky, memory is the only other thing I can think of. Here’s something to try. Beg or buy 2-128mb memory modules that are first class, non cheapo modules. Try only them in your Mac. If no joy, then you’ve spent $50-60 & have something to show for it other than same-o, same-o. Then, keeping the “good� memory in the Mac, try swapping out the PCI cards and hard drives. If you don’t have any spare components, you have to take it to a good repair shop to have the motherboard checked as well as the peripherals. So, this is the best advice I can give you. Hope this helps. Keep us informed. --Dwight |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 06, 2003 9:05 AM |
ken882 |
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Dwight, I ran memtest, and it passed, but the nagging issue with memtest is that memtest can't test all of the memory, since some of the memory is allocated to OS X and the memtest exe itself. Your thoughts that I might have a bad CPU accelerator card are intriguing, but I wonder how I could ever convince Sonnet that perhaps my G4 800 Mhz card might be out of spec enough to cause problems with OS X (I've spoken to one of their service people about this, and I got the "standard" answers regarding memory, removing other cards, etc., all of which I had already done. It seems that the freezes mostly occur during startup and task switching and mouse events, which to me would implicate the cache management, but I've heard that even people with newer Macs have had similar problems if they install third party RAM modules, so I'm wondering what OS X itself is doing with memory management that could cause these problems. OS 9.1 runs fine on my system, and I never expected that changing an OS version would cause these freezes. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 06, 2003 8:58 AM |
ken882 |
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flynjmac, Here's the homepage for where you can get memtest. The link to the actual download area is on this page: http://home.appleisp.net/~frisky/ |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 04, 2003 4:08 PM |
flynjmac |
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Hi, Can someone put a link to get the program? I remember seeing on the forum a while back but there are too many posts to go through to find the link. Thanks. Jack |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 04, 2003 12:07 PM |
earlyd416 |
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OK. From someone who's been there, done that, got the t-shirt & ball hat...here's what I've learned from lock-ups or freezes. 1. run memtest according to the instructions. (This forum had a thread last fall in this very subject). If you pass, you got other problems including maybe a bad CPU upgrade card. 2. I've gone exclusively to use Ramdirect's EDO 128mb memory modules in my 7300, 7600, 8600 and 9600. It works, is robust and the vendor garrentees it w/o any hassles. He's on eBay. His name is Joseph Bettencourt (I think,) and his modules sell for about $20-25 each (he also sells other sizes and types of memory). I highly recommend him. The memory that I discovered bad upon upgrading to 10.2 from 10.1.5 was from another vendor. I tried to return it and got such a run around that I sold it to a neighbor ($2 each) who was running 8.6. (My bad memory modules would work in 8.6 & 9.x according to the ramcheck and Newer ram checking programs.) So, if it's a memory problem, consider getting Ramdirect's EDO memory modules. (Send me an email for more info as I have that stuff at home.) --Dwight |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 04, 2003 2:23 AM |
willschou1 |
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PS. Supermacs lowend mac list is for owners and users of UMAX clone machines. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 04, 2003 2:13 AM |
willschou1 |
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Run Join the supermacs lowend macs group. It's a great group of people and very helpful. OSX is not always the main focus of the group. Questions do come up and we try to answer them. Unsupported OSX which is also a Lowend mac group is a good place to check out as well. Will S |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 03, 2003 6:41 PM |
ken882 |
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willschou1, Thanks for the info. I submitted a RMA to OWC for the extra 256 Mb of RAM that I bought from them last week. Those 2 DIMMs, along with the 2 I bought last September give me 4 currently. Over the weekend, I tried running OS X 10.2 using a single DIMM in the machine. I tried 3 of them, and with each, I got the system to freeze within 1.5 hours. All of the RAM seems to work fine with OS 9.1. So I'm afraid now that I'll get into a situation where OWC won't take the memory back because it's technically not "bad", and Sonnet will tell me that since their G4 800 Mhz is running OS 9.1, that there's nothing wrong with it, either. Has any UMAX owner reading this joined LowEndMac's email list? I'm thinking of doing that, so maybe I can get more information that's specific to my machine. I just hope I'm not trying to get a combination of hardware running that in fact can't ever run correctly. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 03, 2003 7:27 AM |
midd33 |
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Ken, Thanks for the help. I managed to get memtest running last night. WHen I woke up this morning everything had passed! I'm now wondering if it has something to do with installing Jaguar overtop of 10.1. When 10.2.4 is released, I plan on doing a fresh install of Jaguar. Hopefully my freezeups will disappear after that. |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 03, 2003 2:32 AM |
willschou1 |
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Well going to try and answer a couple of peoples questions. Yes, IMHO ram problems are a major issue with our machines being able to run OSX. Larry from OWC sent a letter to someone that I got a chance to read. He said that if it were possible to get 256mb ram to work in Old World Macs he would be selling it. The memory controller chips in the machine won't allow this to be done. End of story at least for now! I also don't think it is worth the trouble trying to make chips made for other machines run in ours. OWC and others are selling 128mb chips that do work for apox $26.00. Given the price range it just isn't worth the trouble. Yes, the quality of ram chips being sold for our machines sucks and is much lower then it has been in the past. But I can remember paying $100.00 for 4mb ram chips and thinking I got a bargin! By quality being lower I mean the failuare rate is huge. In past years you bought your ram and it worked!!! Now we have cheap prices and lots of bad chips. So it is more important then ever to buy from a company which will take it back. In gerneral 128 mb ram chips EDO or FPM 2 k refresh on a side ( 2+2= 4) are the ones to get. But the company needs to be a Mac supplier or they maybe clueless. OWC which provides us with this site is as good a place to buy from as any. The price is right and they do replace defective ram.You are also supporting a company that is supporting our machines like no other. If your well to do you may do better buying from a more high end source or not. I don't know if anyone is still selling ram made for our machines or if it is all 3.3 volt converted to 5 volt. I'm guessing the later is mostly the case. I tested my Ram in OS 9.1 using Power Control from XLR8 and Gauge Pro from NewerTech. Either seem to work some say Power Control can test all your Ram while Gauge Pro misses the RAm which is being used to power your system. I don't know if this is true or not. Memtest for OSX I've not used. Last time I was having problems which pointed to ram it all tested ok. I took to a local shop and it turned out I had interleaved FPM and EDO chips which is a no no but worked in OS 9.x I am also no longer using the older 8mb 70ns ramwhich is ok in OS 9.x and earlier versions of OSX but not 10.2 |
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RE: OS X and |
February, 02, 2003 2:40 PM |
ken882 |
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midd33, I launched it by navigating to the directory where the memtest executable lives (for me, after the download, it was in the Desktop/memtester-2.93.1 directory). Then run it by preceding the filename by a dot and a slash. When my working directory was where memtest lived, the following command worked for me: ./memtest 382M 1 Refer to Tony's Feb 01 post for an explanation why you can't just say "memtest" without the dot and slash (that was why I couldn't run it originally). As the memtest documentation states, run the "top" command to see how much free memory is available, and tell memtest to check about 10 M less than that. I haven't figured out the "proper" way to exit the "top" command, but ctrl-z will suspend it, and then you can use the kill command, using the PID of "top" to kill it (you can get the PID of "top" by finding it in the process list of the "top" listing). I dont' know if this is necessary or not, but after starting memtest, I put the mouse cursor in one of the corners of the display that I had defined to keep the screen saver from running (as far as I know, the screen saver would be a new process, possibly requiring some of the memory locked by memtest). I ran memtest for 1 pass. With a G4 800Mhz CPU, memtest reported an elapsed time of 13542 seconds, which is about 3 hours, 45 minutes. |
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