OS9 Helper |
July, 31, 2003 3:44 AM |
bjepson |
Hi I installed OS 9.2.1 on my 8600 PowerMac. I have a G4 800Mzh Sonnet update processor installed. No trouble installing OS 9.2.1, but it just works with the original 250Mhz Apple Processor. When the Sonnet update processor is installed, I crash as soon as I click on the hard drives, or any item on the top bar. I do not crash if I access control panels or applications via the control strip or via the network. I installed OS 9.2.1 on both my hard drives, one with only the OS extensions, not any add-ons, and all my add-ons extensions on the other as well to check if I had an extension conflict. No difference. I wonder if the problem comes from the screen (Radius PresView 21SR) and the Thumber Radius Colorcard I am using. Any clue on the problem would be helpful. Meanwhile, I have to switch back to OS 9.1. Thanks Françoise Password: FrOl8432 |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 11, 2003 9:43 PM |
rpjallan |
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Are you using the latest Sonnet software? If you are then Apple System Profiler should recognise the processor correctly. It does for me. This my fix some of your problems. |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 08, 2003 4:41 AM |
bjepson |
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Hello, I more or less sorted the problem. Changing the CD writer helped as I was able to boot from a CD, meaning I no longer had to swap processors when I was unable to restart. Changing the ID number of one hard drive from 1 to 4 didn't make a difference. I now have OS9.1 on one drive, with the Sonnet software installed. System profile says: 'processor unknown, speed 800Mhz, but metronome says G4. On the other drive, I installed OS 9.2.2, but uninstalled the Sonnet software, as this setting was crashing at start up, no matter what I tried. System profiler says: processor G3, speed 800Mhz. Calibration software works on both settings. So, I am satisfied, and thankful for the help I received from this forum. The next step for me will be, following Jim's example, a third hard drive, with Jaguar... Probably quite soon. Françoise |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 05, 2003 8:25 AM |
jseibyl |
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Just a quick clarification on a previous posting I made. I mentioned Classic uses ~256 megs of RAM. That is after I have run 4 or 5 classic apps and the cache memory is blocked off. It is not app dependent, but reserves that block for the classic shell, so each time I run an app, it reserves more and more RAM for Classic mode. I know the apps have their own memory allocation, but if I quit a classic app, that cache reserve remains. After running 4 or 5 classic apps (Cleaner 5, Director, PhotoShp, Premire, etc), the machine slows down. The only way to clear the reserved RAM block is to stop classic, and re-run it. No big deal, the machine is running smoothly, and I suspect that Jaguar is supposed to do that, I will take that in trade for the stability. I do know my apps love to chew through RAM, and I suspect there is a relationship between the allocation for program specific RAM, and the RAM cache classic mode uses. |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 05, 2003 8:11 AM |
jseibyl |
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Good luck, probally just an unseated RAM chip, I hope.....BTW, I will be in London in Sept(Soho), just a couple of days though, my favorite city! |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 04, 2003 3:58 PM |
bjepson |
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Hi Jim, Marty and others Fantastic weather in London this weekend.Finally, I didn't advance with the OS 9.2 update. Having bought myself a FinePix Pro S1 (second) with good lenses I thought it was a good time to refresh my basic photographic knowledge. I love the camera. But I am no photographer. I am mainly into design for print. Now, I am a bit busy to sort out my problems, especially as I am going to work at clients studios for the rest of the week. I am back using 9.1 with the Sonnet processor and I am copiously crashing whereas, before testing 9.2.1 with OS9 helper, running was smooth. One memory chip doesn't show in the system profiler, but I reshuffled them, so Jim, it is where I will start. Lucky it is on the 8600, not the 8500! Marty, I have noticed that I am on the wrong forum, even bjepson is not my username, sorry, but I am scrolling the entries in the right forum and taking notes. I eventually will move onto OS10 on my old settings and have a spare machine for running unsupported applications, or, what seems a good idea, like jim, set a third SCSI drive... Françoise |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 04, 2003 9:42 AM |
jseibyl |
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I also use Vuescan with my Lino/Hell scanner in X, works great. Video production IS another story, and I want to keep using Premiere rather then shelling out the 1000 bucks for Final Cut Pro. Until I can afford a new dual G5, I will use Premiere in 9.2.2, runs better than 9.1, and faster than in Classic Mode in X. |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 04, 2003 9:10 AM |
jseibyl |
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Couldn't resist....I run 9.1, 9.2.2, and 10.2.6, all on seperate disks. I prefer the speed of the finder for 9.2, it is faster, and the entire machine is generally more stable than 9.1, ESPECIALLY for multimedia apps. I have only retained 9.1 in case of an emergency. I use 9.2.2 for classic mode. Of course my main OS IS 10.2.6, that is what I love, but I still like to run 9.2.2 for some apps that are not X native. These apps ALL work in Classic mode, but classic DOES use RAM (mine uses ~256 megs out of 1 gig), and that makes some stuff a little slower than running them in 9.2. Director 8.5, and Premiere ie. Given the fact that these machines are not supposed to do any of this, I hang on to all three OS's. I am here because of OS X, it is a FANTASTIC os, runs stable on the old machines, and is the reason this forum is here. |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 02, 2003 1:14 PM |
mjoecups358 |
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This forum is about running OSX on unsupported Macs. Vuescan is nice OSX program that supports my old Lino/Hell SCSI scanner on OSX with my old powertower Pro. Photoshop 7 runs great under 10.2.6. It's probably true that there are software updates that require 9.2.2 to run, but I am not aware of any that won't run under 9.22 OR 10.2.6 If you are happy/stuck on using OS9, that's great. This forum is the wrong place for you though... Marty |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 02, 2003 1:20 AM |
bjepson |
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To Marty There are a number of valid reasons to update to 9.2.2 as an increasing number of software updates require 9.2.x minimum to run. Even Photoshop 7 doesn't run for me under OS 9.1. On the other hand, a number of programmes won't work under OS10.x, e.g. Fontographer. I am unaware if Macromedia has updated it since 98. As for my calibration software, not updated since 98, when Radius sold to Miro, I was told that it wouldn't work under system 9, but it does. Sonnet referred me to an article published in Mac Addict in February to tell me that it would probably be no longer working with me using the Sonnet G4 update processor. So, unless one tests thoroughly and not give up at the first failed try... it is worth to be stubborn. I am very thankful to developpers who make use of the expandability of pre G3/G4 machines, these are solid machines. It is a pity that Apple let us down. + I like the OS9.x environment, I feel much more in control in terms of maintenance and organisation, and I can dump easily things from the core system that I do not like or use. Françoise |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 01, 2003 9:14 PM |
rpjallan |
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The reasons for running OS 9.2.2 are much the same as running OSX 10.2.6 I guess. Remember OSX is not supported either! In my opinion 9.2.2 is superior to 9.1 in many ways. I still need to use OS 9. Neither of my scanners are supported in OSX among other things. I have not looked back since installing 9.2.2. |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 01, 2003 4:17 PM |
mjoecups358 |
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Why bother? Run OS9.1 which is supported. I have repeatedly asked why bother with unsupported OS9 installs, and have yet to see even ONE answer... I find my hardware to be much more stable and therefore useful and 10.2.6. 9.1 works for Diskwarrior and for Classic. Marty |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 01, 2003 4:07 PM |
jseibyl |
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I certainly understand the color calibration, being a photographer myself. try to get it up without the calibrator first, then scream at Sonnet, good luck!! Jim |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 01, 2003 4:03 PM |
bjepson |
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Hi Jim and all others brainstorming on my problems. Not much time to advance on the issue today, so tomorrow. I did zap the pram. It was a bit weird, the chime was delayed and single, the message was that the mac was starting with extensions off (?). After that, the machine refused to restart, screens stayed dark. I swapped the Sonnet processor for the original Apple one. Still nothing. But it restarted no problem after the night sleep. Since zapping the pram, I can start the Mac with extensions off. But I lost 'my communications with the PressView monitor', meaning my calibration facilities. I still cannot boot from a CD pressing 'c', but it could be the CD drive, which I will swapped for the one in my 8500. Background to the full story. I bought the Sonnet update processor in Feb, to fit on my 8500 which I bought in 96, heavily used, but perfectly working. Previously, for years, I was using a Maccelerate G3 update processor which I overclocked to 490Mzh, the bus speed was 55. It worked perfectly well. Fitting the Sonnet PCI 800Mhz proved a complete nightmare, the machine crashed after about 1/2 hour of usage, I lost my calibration facilities. Didn't recover them refitting the Maccelerate processor, couldn't start with extensions off, or boot from a CD, and the machine kept on crashing, although I reformatted both drives. Sonnet exchanged the processor. Meanwhile, I bought the 8600 and started back afresh. It worked well apart from not being able to start with extensions off, or booting from a CD by pressing 'c'. My main concern is colour calibration. Obviously, being able to install Mac OS 9.2.x has software advantages, hence the attraction of OS9 helper, as I am not ready to switch to OS10 on this machine, + I am not too sure what will happen to my calibration facilities under OS10. I will refit the Sonnet tomorrow, follow advice about RAM testing (all EDO), and drive ID number. Thanks to all. Françoise |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
August, 01, 2003 6:53 AM |
jseibyl |
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Sonnet Tech support will probally say zap PRAM and de-interleave RAM. I have called them before. I agree about 9.2.2, it is more stable, but I still think the timing on the RAM may be off. If fiddling with it does not work still, the last thing I might do is change the ID number on the second drive to 2, or 4. SCSI drives sometimes get a little wierd about their ID numbers. I had a drive that was NOT conflicting with the other devices, that did not work on ID 2, it would not mount by itself, and when I mounted it, it would hang the system, I changed it to ID 4, and then it was fine. I used Apple drive setup to initialise it, so no third party driver. Wierd, but it worked. |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
July, 31, 2003 8:49 PM |
rpjallan |
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I have a 7300 with Sonnet G4 800. This machine is indestructable. Never had any problems except after first installing G4 800 had intermittent freezes in OS 9. Zapping PRAM cured this. Do you have the latest Sonnet software installed. Also I would upgrade to 9.2.2. BTW I have all sorts of odd RAM chips in this but interleaved - never had any RAM problems. Also OSX runs superbly. I would also contact Sonnet Tech Support... |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
July, 31, 2003 2:56 PM |
jseibyl |
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I just thought of something.....Do you have an extra keyboard around???? Back in the day, I had a UMAX that started do go nuts, bombs at odd times, sometimes it would be fine, other times crash on hard system profiler. Turned out to be a bad keyboard. Just trying to think of anything I can..... Jim |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
July, 31, 2003 12:57 PM |
jseibyl |
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Oh yeah, I have to ask this even though it is probally an impossibility....Do you know if you have EDO or FPM RAM??? FPM is older and slower. Typically, the two types, even though they both fit in the slots, WILL NOT work together, though I have heard stories they have (but not very well) You can tell if your RAM is EDO if there is a little smaller chip in the center of the stick, FPM does not have this and all chips are the same size. OS 9.2 can be slightly pickier about RAM timing than 9.1. Even if all your chips are EDO, they can still be timed differently. 70 ns is the timing cycle in NANO-seconds. Some older EDO is rated at 70, newer is 60 ns. |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
July, 31, 2003 12:32 PM |
jseibyl |
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I had two 8500's, one booted from CD, one not. It turned out to be the CD drive itself. I swapped the cd's, and sure enough, the one that was not booting did, and vice-versa. The drive that works is a Sony, the one that doesn't is a Mashita(sp?), both factory stock from when the machines were built. The Mashita DOES boot from an OS8 disk. I have not explored if I can update the firmware, as I sold one of the 8500's already, with disclosure to the buyer about the Mashita CD, kept the sony for myself. Try to play with the RAM before sending back the processor. If you have the same RAM pairs(same size, etc) start with them interleaved first, run it, then add others as you are sure it is stable. I have a sneaky suspicion that the RAM is the issue. I really don't think the monitor is the issue here, so if you don't want to zap PRAM, try the RAM chips first. I have had one bad RAM chip that did ALMOST the same things you describe. If the RAM has different timing cycles (70 ns, and 60 ns mixed, you WILL have difficulties with an extreme proc upgrade) I have to agree with pwrmactx, the first Sonnet proc I got(g4 800) did not even boot, but they swapped it out for one that has been running great for over 6 months of heavy usage with three OS's (9.1, 9.2, and 10.2.6). That did little to bolster my faith in the Sonnet upgrade however...... |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
July, 31, 2003 12:11 PM |
pwrmactx |
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Françoise, Jim Gave you great advice, switching to a slower internal bus speed does the trick as well as making OS X work... My Advice, if the card is still under warranty, is to return it. The lack of SCSI speed does not make up for the "Increase" of speed/Mhz. Soon the Powerlogix 800MHZ PCI will be available... Buy that instead... center> http://www.powerlogixstore.com/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=118&idproduct=412 |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
July, 31, 2003 12:00 PM |
bjepson |
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Hi Jim and thanks 2 9Gb hard drives on internal bus 0 - ID:0 and ID:1, the last one terminated. 512 mb memory, all 64mb chips from different Cos, some interleaved, some not. I re-installed the Sonnet software and hit the CUDA switch. I didn't zap the pram. In fact, I am not too keen these days zapping the pram. At first, after installing the Sonnet processor, under system 9.1, I had trouble getting my screen, calibrator working - there is a serial connector in between the PressView monitor and the computer, technology dating back 1996 -, and zapping the pram didn't help and got me in a weird cycle - may it was a co-incidence. Under system 9.1, setting works well apart from the fact than I cannot start from a booting CD by pressing 'c' at start up, and pressing 'shift' doesn't disable extensions, and this is still true after installing OS 9.2.1. There seems to be no problems, with the Sonnet processor and system 9.2.1 at start up, everything load fine, with no delay. But double-clicking any hard drives, or clicking on any items of the top tool bar cause an immediate freeze. May be, I should try and zap the pram? May be I should re-shuffle the memory chips? May be I should switch off the PressView monitor and just turn the 'palette' monitor on? As I am able to access the machine from the network, or use the control strip, could it be a problem with the desktop? But I do not seem to have problems if either I use system 9.2.1 in conjunction with the 250Mhz Apple processor, or system 9.1 in conjunction with the 800Mhz update processor. This is my main workhorse; due to my lack of solid knowledge of hardware and 'essential' software, the way things interact, I have cold feet! Thanks for guidance. Françoise |
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RE: OS9 Helper |
July, 31, 2003 10:00 AM |
jseibyl |
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Hello, How many hard-drives, and where are they(main scsi bus, or pci card)? Could be a problem with scsi timing on the drives, are they terminated and ID'ed properly?? You could also try to zap the PRAM, and hit the CUDA switch, but sounds like this might not help if 9.1 is okay. Also, does the sonnet upgrade extension load at boot? In 9.2, it loads after the Ethernet enabler, you may want to force it to load first. Could also be interleaved RAM. If the RAM is from different companies or is older, and is interleaved, the sonnet chip could bomb. I have seen similar problems from this issue. Sonnet recommends DE-interleaving, but you lose some performance. I like to keep it interleaved unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Perhaps if you could detail your setup, we could narrow it down, it could be many things, but I would start with what I just mentioned. Jim |
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