Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 08, 2002 11:20 PM |
OSXGuru |
A couple of users have had access to multiple systems, on some of which Classic will run successfully and on some of which Classic won't run (on Mac OS X 10.2). After some experimentation, here are some things that appear to be true: -- it does not appear to be related to installation issues. Some users have reported that a clean install of Mac OS X 10.2 (or of Mac OS 9.x) fixes the problem. But others report that it does not. In the case where users have had access to 'working' and 'non-working' systems, moving the 9.x System Folder from the 'working' machine to the 'non-working' machine doesn't help. Neither does moving the 'Classic Startup' application. -- using ktrace and kdump to watch what Classic Startup does reveals some differences between the working and non-working systems, but they do not seem to be significant -- on non-working systems, a console error message gets written: mach_error (os/kern) no space available This appears to be an error that has to do with the virtual memory system. It is the kind of error you might get if you tried to map more memory than is available in the virtual address space (or tried to map memory that is already mapped). However, I now have a report that this error is generated even on a working system, so it may be a red herring. -- Classic crashes just as the window for Classic Startup is put up, but before anything is drawn in it. One of the last things which the Classic Startup application does is create a file at /tmp/.boxless-video and do a memory map for that file. But, according to ktrace, that mmap succeeds. -- Classic would ask about updating files in the Classic System Folder soon after the point that it crashes. -- One user reports that Classic works with G3 processors under 10.2, but fails with G4 processors. (If this covers the facts, it would be very interesting indeed). My best guess at this point is that the problem is correlated with hardware in some way. So what I would like is if those of you running 10.2 could post to this thread, with the following information (among anything else that seems likely to help): 1. Does Classic work for you in 10.2? 2. Which machine are you using? 3. Which CPU upgrade (G3 or G4)? 4. Which video card (or onboard video)? |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 10, 2002 11:18 PM |
anton |
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yep i'm one of the G4 people 9600 XLR8 G4 450MHz when i triy to start classic it it either quits or freezes painful.... |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 10, 2002 10:26 PM |
alan |
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I have 10.2 running on my 8600/300 upgraded with a Newertech G3/500. I have 480M ram, Adaptec 29160 PCI SCSI card connected to a Segate 18G drive, ATI orion Rage 1280 Pro Video card, and an Adaptec USB/Firewire card. I upgrade to 10.2 from 10.1.5. Classic (9.2.2) works fine, as do all of my peripherals, except for my internal Yamaha 8/4/24 CDRW. It works under 9.2.2 but not under classic or OS X. I replaced it with an external Yamaha Firewire 2100 (16/10/40) CDRW, and it works fine. |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 10, 2002 10:17 PM |
mjohnson1 |
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I tried using both 9.1 and 9.2.2 for my Classic layer. Neither one worked. See my previous post for specs. It isn't a 9.x issue apparently - it seems to be directly related to G4 upgrades only. |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 10, 2002 4:23 PM |
cmliljes |
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I forgot to mention that we'd have to do an upgrade install of Jaguar onto a box already running 10.0 or 10.1 and OS 9.2 as Classic to find out. |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 10, 2002 4:14 PM |
cmliljes |
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Not to beat a dead horse, but once again: Has anyone verified whether (for G4-upgraded OldWorld boxes) OS-9.1-as-Classic as opposed to OS-9.2-as-Classic is the issue? I can't verify it because I don't yet have Jaguar, but I'm itching to know... |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 10, 2002 12:48 PM |
Bi1lMe |
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Turning off the L2 cache on my system (Newer Technology G4 450mhz installed in a 9500) does not allow Classic to start. Of course, with my limited knowledge, I should perhaps say, I THINK I turned off the cache. Anyway, no improvement. And no change when I turned it back on. |
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Kansas w Tempo, Tango & Radeon 7000 Classic works |
September, 10, 2002 5:14 AM |
lars |
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My Kansas (See above for other specs) is fully decked PCI-wise: A1 Sonnet Tempo ATA-66 B1 Sonnet Tango USB 1.1 & FireWire C1 Radeon 7000, with display on VGA connector, also known as ATY,RV100ad_A |
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UMAX J700/G3/ATI 128/ Classic YES! |
September, 10, 2002 3:47 AM |
willschou1 |
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It sure is starting to look like the G4 could be the issue! |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 9:54 PM |
speedy |
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PowerMac 9600... Radeon Mac Edition (Main) Radeon 7000 (Second Monitor) Classic doesn't work. Using PowerLogix util, I disabled write-thru mode. One time the main screen got vertical stripes of grey and other colors (like from the bootx startup pallet). Another time, I tried it, and the main monitor lost sync. (both times requiring a hard reset) These were done right after boot. I tried messing around with some other setting, (no go for classic) and then disabling write-thru again.. and still no go, but no crash either... Weird. |
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Next steps |
September, 09, 2002 5:54 PM |
OSXGuru |
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Well, it certainly looks pretty convincing that the problem with Classic on unsupported systems in Mac OS X 10.2 is related to the G4 processor in some way. The next questions would be "why" and "how do we fix it"? I'm assuming that Classic works fine on supported systems with G4 processors. (Actually, it would be interesting to know whether Classic works on a Beige G3 with a G4 upgrade.) So the problem must be some combination of the difference between a G3 and a G4, and the difference between a supported system and an unsupported system. What I'm trying to do at the moment is to step through the execution of the TruBlueEnvironment program in order to gain some insight about what is going on. But that is a little tricky (because there are no debugging symbols included, unfortunately). And I may not recognize the problem when I see it. But it's worth a try. The other thing that might be worth trying is playing with some of the G4 processor settings, like turning the L2 cache on and off, changing the dynamic power management mode, etc. It is possible that the G4 on supported systems is in a slightly different state than on unsupported systems. In fact, if someone has access to a G4 on a supported system, it would be interesting to use the CHUD tools from Apple (the Reggie program in particular) to take a look at the various CPU registers (HID0 etc.) and compare them to the values on an unsupported system. It is possible that the answer lies there. In fact, it seems logical--the TruBlueEnvironemnt can't be fundamentally incompatible with a G4, so there must be something in the way that the G4 is set up that it doesn't like. (But that kind of thinking is wrong as often as it is right). |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 5:25 PM |
mjoecups358 |
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Proof Positive! I swapped in my Metabox G3/400 in place of the Powerlogix G4/450, and Classic now starts as expected, 9.1 too. So it's definitely a G4 thing. Odd... |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 3:14 PM |
cmliljes |
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This is, maybe, a really zany suggestion, but has anyone thought that it may be a Mac OS 9.1 vs. Mac OS 9.2 problem? Classic seems to be bailing at about the time OS X would be asking ya'll if you'd like to update the compatibility software in the Mac OS 9.1 System Folder. I haven't yet bought Jaguar, so I can't check, but it's just a thought... |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 1:35 PM |
mjoecups358 |
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Classic is no go on my Powerlogix upgraded Powerwave G4/450.... I'll try swapping in a G3 today as a test. |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 1:13 PM |
tempest |
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Did you guys w/ the G4 try mucking with the PowerLogix's speculative access/dynamic power management settings? |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 1:08 PM |
tempest |
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My Classic setup under 10.2 works--9.1 and 9.2.2. 8500 w/ PowerLogix G3. 1MB L2 cache installed. Both on-board video and Radeon VGA display connectors work. Zynx 100baseT ethernet card which I'm using Firewire/USB card, which don't have any USB devices connected As per the above, a Radeon 7000. |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 12:45 PM |
wnarv |
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8600/ Newer Tech G3 card /Onboard Video Classic Works |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 12:05 PM |
fixitjc |
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XLR8 G3 500, 256RAM, 3 - 9 gig SCSI HD, CD & CD Burner, Scanner: Jag works great and so does Classic No Problems |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 11:59 AM |
miwine |
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This fits the pattern: classic quits at startup on my 7500 upgraded with an OWC G4 450mhz/XLR8 ZIF carrier and a Rage 128 board. |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 11:38 AM |
g2 |
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Classic works on: PowerCurve G3 266, IXMicro PCI video, and PowerTower Pro G3 400, Apple/ATI Rage 128 |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 11:38 AM |
Tony.Scaminaci |
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From all of these posts, it certainly appears to be a problem with G4 upgrade cards. So, a more specific question: Has anyone with a G3 upgrade card experienced Classic quitting? A number of people have reported running various builds of the soon-to-be-released 10.2.1 update on the Apple forums. Apparently, only paying Apple Developer members have received the latest builds. I'm a non-paying member and it hasn't appeared in my download area yet. Maybe the 10.2.1 release will correct the problem with Classic. |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware -G4 the problem? |
September, 09, 2002 11:21 AM |
mjohnson1 |
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From what I see on this thread so far, it looks like Classic works for people that have G3 upgrades but not for those that have G4's. Hmm... |
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8600/300 / G3/500 / Radeon 7000 / Classic works |
September, 09, 2002 10:16 AM |
lars |
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I have a 8600/300 (Kansas motherboard, i.e. no cache on it) with a Sonnet G3/500 (1MB cache@250 MHz) 640 MB RAM (interleaved) Installed and running with Sun TFT on the Radeon as the only display. . Prepped a 4GB SCSI disk with a copy of my running System 9.2.2 international (Oldworld from OS9forever) , took care to disable "funny" extensions as Virex, Sonnet software (except processor enabler, which is still 1.4.7, Symbionts won't let me disable it so I let it be there), Control , File Sharing extensions, Control Strip Extension, Toast extensions, Software Update extensions, ditto for Control Panels of no use in X (or possibly disruptive) . Dlded XPF 2.2.1, started it, pointing the installer to install on the SCSI disk on the internal bus, did set the Open Firmware input & output to keyboard and monitor, and set Throttle to None. Hit Install. . Reboot. Looooooong wait before display (grey BootX screen skipped) res shown was 800x600 (on an 18" TFT...). Display started with the MacOS X progress bar (with firewall etc bladibla) Installer for Jaguar loaded, pointed it to the prepared disk, and did a custom install (skipped: Asian fonts, Canon and Epson drivers. Did install the other supplemental international fonts and the driver for HP and Lexmark. . Looooong wait for install to move on and get ready and ask for disk two etc.. . Reboot. Rejoice! It loads the config thingy, plays the wonderful MP3 of Kruder and Dorfmeister. Set the things I wanted to set. That is I went through all the Control Panels setting them the way I wanted. . Dlded Powerlogix Cache Control X 2.1b4. Installed it. Ran Software update and installed the security update. Reboot. . Opened Classic cp. Before starting Classic, went through the cp to inspect settings. In the Advanced tab, selected Use preferense from home folder. Started Classic. Classic startup Window opens, Jaguar the asks if I want to copy the current Preferences etc to my home folder. On a brave hunch selected Yes. trundle trundle. Jaguar asks me permission to update the System folder. I agree. trundle trundle. Classic boots on. Scares me shitless as the display goes black and turns itself off. Moments later relief is offered by a continuing Classic boot. Yahoo! Try out apps, both simple and complex (Office 98) It works! . Thanks Ryan! And thanks for all the brave testers out there. |
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RE: Classic on 10.2 and hardware |
September, 09, 2002 8:32 AM |
drc |
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The pattern seems to be getting clearer here.... 9500 with a Sonnet 450 MHz G4 upgrade card, 224 MB of RAM, Orange Micro USB/Firewire card, 3dFX Voodo 5 & ixMicro TT video cards, running off an Adaptec 2930 (?) Ultra-scsi card. Classic doesn't work (starts to load, then quits). Has anyone thrown their old G3 card back in to test this? |
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PTP / XLR8 G3 450 / ixMicro ix3D / Classic Works |
September, 09, 2002 8:24 AM |
brfransen |
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I also have an ATTO SCSI card, OrangeMicro FW/USB card, Asante 590 card, and the ix3D. Classic works great and is much faster than in 10.1. Britney |