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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 17, 2002 4:45 AM |
avit |
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Are you absolutely positively sure you've isolated the crash to the web browser and admin account combination? I'm pretty sure I'm seeing the same problem as you since mine is also very likely to lock up in a browser, but I've also had it crash when doing something mundane like resizing a Finder window, and once when accessing it over ssh (I think I just ran "ls" or something). It's not very often that it happens outside of a browser, but it seems that it still does. My wife who uses the Mac under a regular user account doesn't complain of any instability, and she browses the web too. You may in fact be right about this. Very weird. If it is in fact something to do with the admin account then the problem starts to look something like a memory protection fault (a software bug in the kernel). In that case one would guess that the bug should affect "real Macs" as well, no? (It doesn't, therefore I doubt that's in fact the problem.) ...I'm just guessing out loud here. I'm going to stress test a regular user account to see if I can make it crash. For some reason, to me it just seems very unlikely that this would be caused by using an admin account. However, I hope to be surprised as it would give me a solution for now. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 17, 2002 1:25 AM |
avaughs |
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I have a 9600 so removing the L2 cache is not an option. I use the PowerLogix software to disable the mother board L2 cache. Don't know what causes the lock ups, only what's going on when they occur: admin account in use and browser in use. How does one identify a 4k refresh DIMM module? |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 16, 2002 11:20 PM |
avit |
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That's interesting... But if the motherboard cache gets disabled, then how exactly does it help with the memory buffering? I'm glad to hear that it worked for you, and I'm not doubting your solution. I just don't understand it. Perhaps 10.2 now expects the cache chip? How many of you out there with this "browser crash" problem have your cache chips installed? Anyone? I will try installing my Apple chip and see what that does. I simply yanked it out automatically when installing the G4, so I never tried running with the cache chip. Everyone seemed to report better results without it, but maybe that's different in 10.2. marcush, Is there any difference between the Apple and PowerComputing cache chips besides the tolerances you mentioned? i.e. As far as you know, they are swappable? |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 16, 2002 1:07 PM |
marcush |
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Maybe this is a problem of the 7410 based G4's, on which the 400-450Mhz upgrades are based? I mentioned this in passing on my previous post. I picked up this tip from the xlr8yourmac processor upgrades database under Power Tower/Pro. It resolved this issue for me and allowed me to re-interleave my RAM. Basically, I reinstalled my original Power Computing L2 cache DIMM. Mike Breeden noted that the Power Computing caches were rated faster than Apple's standard at the time and was better able to buffer traffic from main memory to the processor. I used Powerlogix Cache Control X to enable the XLR8 G4/450's backside cache and it automatically disabled the logic board L2. Afterwards, I had perfect stability and increased performance due to the memory being interleaved again. If you can find a Power Computing cache DIMM on e-bay it might be worth trying. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 16, 2002 7:38 AM |
gx77 |
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I wonder if insisting on 2k memory would do any good. it's worth a shot. It's looking more and more like this is the issue that's causing the freezes in 10.2. odd, cause OWC is always harping about how their memory has always exceeded apples minimum specs. I don't doubt it still exceeds them, but maybe they should issue a warning about stability in old world machines with 10.2 |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 15, 2002 9:34 PM |
avit |
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I also recently upgraded my 7600 with a PowerLogix G4/450, and upgraded the OS to 10.2. I'm having the same symptoms, it locks-up mostly in browsers but not restricted to browsers. My RAM is two OWC 4K refresh 128mb EDO DIMMs, and two other 128mb EDOs. (I think they might be from OWC as well, but can't remember.) I have tried shuffling them all around, interleaved and non-interleaved, none of which has made a difference. Now I don't know what to do. I don't want to spend a fortune. I would like to run 10.2 on this Mac as it otherwise seems to perform well, and others have noted success. So now I'm wondering, should I: a. Call OWC back and insist on 2K memory? b. Pay a little more and swap the PowerLogix for a Sonnet G4/450? Your experiences and suggestions would be appreciated. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 15, 2002 9:07 PM |
marcush |
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I just did the final memory upgrade to my machine this past weekend. I am now at 1Gig of OWC RAM. 6 out of 8 DIMMs are 128MB 4k refresh. The other two, which are the oldest are 128MB 2k refresh. I have not experienced any memory related instability since I removed the XLR8 G4/450 MPe SSE card that I previously had. All of my RAM is interleaved, which I could not do with the XLR8 card witthout having the logic board cache installed before. It seems to me that your instability problems could be traced to a timing issue between the processor and the refresh rate of the RAM. I don't know all of the technical why's and wherefore's of the issue. That's just an explanatiion I got from XLR8 and why you are often told to deinterleave your RAM. I'm currently running a Sonnet G4 800 in my Power Tower Pro and it has not exhibited any of the instability that manifested itself with the XLR8 card. That's why I now believe that the problem was the XLR8 card all along. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 15, 2002 7:17 AM |
gx77 |
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I tested my memory using GURU in os 9 and it found one bad chip. What i'm curious about is whether or not GURU is as picky about memory as Jaguar is. GURU only runs in os 9, and from what i can tell, the memory restrictions for 9 aren't nearly as tight as they are for 10.x. does anyone know if there is any way of testing memory in 10.x? Possibly even a command line utility for *nix that we could re- compile to work in 10.x? Even if it saves me the hassle of re- booting into 9 it would be well worth it. Heck, maybe since NewerTech is back in business they will update GURU for X. I'd just like to be able to test my ram with the same set of criterion that Jaguar is using, and I don't believe i'm able to do that now (correct me if I'm wrong...) |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 14, 2002 9:09 PM |
earlyd |
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I, too, have discovered bad memory modules since switching to Jaguar. Not that I think Jaguar is the cause, but, rather, it's due to Jaguar's tighter memory requirements as Ryan has discussed. However, that being said, I'm still getting an occassionaly system lock-up/freeze. Everytime, it's in a browser. IE is the only thing that runs for any length of time before freezing. Mozilla locks the system within 30 seconds. Dunno if the browsers are doing something that makes less tolerant or bad memory modules show up, but I didn't notice these modules had problems until Jaguar. So, any new memory now gets the test immediately upon unpacking. As for the rest of this discussions tests, check the memory first. --Dwight |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 14, 2002 8:58 AM |
gx77 |
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hmmmm... I've got three OWC 128 MB DIMM's, and it started freezing right after i installed them. i thought i found a bad one, so i sent it back, but they said it was fine. Maybe I'll try removing them altogether to see if the machine still crashes. I wonder if they'll take them back if they turn out to be the source of my problem. I have noticed more stability since throttling the L2 Cache back from 200 MHz to 166 Mhz. It still has hard crashes every once in a while, but not nearly as often as before. I'm wondering if that indicates that my Upgrade card is bad- It's still under warranty, so i could send it back, but i want to be sure it's the card before i do so. How is sonnet about that kind of stuff? Curious that the firewire is causing problems for others- i noticed some crashes when using my iPod too- but i figured it was the browser/cache/ram problem, not a firewire thing. I would disconnect all firewire drives, but i mapped my user folders to an external firewire drive for space considerations. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 13, 2002 1:49 PM |
avaughs |
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Don't know what it is about web browsers (Explorer or Navigator) but my system is stable until I leave one of these browsers running. Then the system freezes. It doesn't matter if I'm logged in from an account with Admin privs or not. My RAM is interleaved, I'm using the XLR8 MPe G4/450 SSE daughter card and no DIMMs over 64MB size. I'm gonna try OmniWeb next. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 12, 2002 11:11 PM |
diditgo |
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10.2.1 has been very stable....Up until the addition of my new Ipod!! Not any more..... Almost every time I plug in my Ipod I get a hard system freeze. 9600 sonnet 800 |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 07, 2002 6:16 PM |
marcush |
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I think I've been lucky so far or, as it turns out in my case, it may just be a matter of what upgrade card you are using. I had serious problems with an XLR8 G4/450 MPe SSE carrier card. I had two OWC 128MB DIMMS that I finally isolated as the problem. They are 4k refresh. I also have another set that I just realized yesterday are 4k refresh also, and another set that I believe are 2k refresh. At any rate. Yesterday I reinstalled the pair that had been problematic with the XLR8 card and they have so far been trouble free with my Sonnet G4 800. |
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System finally stable under Jaguar! |
October, 06, 2002 11:07 AM |
Tony.Scaminaci |
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After having continuous freezes every hour or so after upgrading to Jaguar, I finally nailed down the problem to, big surprise, the two OWC 128MB DIMMs. Based on many comments in this forum regarding the pickiness of Jaguar with respect to the type of RAMs, I decided to leave in the expensive RamJet memory and yank out all of the cheap OWC memory. No more freezes, no more crashes. I was also having system freezes in 9.2.2 which has always been a little flaky since I added the OWC DIMMs. Never really suspected the memory being a problem in 9.2.2 because OS 9 wasn't rock solid to begin with. But the fact that the system was gray-screening in 9.2.2 and just completely freezing in Jaguar was too much of a coincidence. Ramjet memory is really expensive and they only guarantee their 64MB DIMMs for OldWorld machines upgraded with a G3 or G4 card. But they do claim that the 2K refresh DIMMs are mandatory on these upgraded machines. I can't vouch for that claim, but I can vouch that the Ramjet memory has been rock solid over all the system versions that I've tried. Guess I'll try to return the 512MB of OWC DIMMs and purchase another 256 MB from Ramjet. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 06, 2002 4:21 AM |
avaughs |
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Stable again? I re-seated my MACh Carrier MPe G4/450 and all my RAM (re-interleaving it). The abreviated chime is gone. My system is stable. I also don't run either Navigator (Chimera) or Explorer 5.22 from an account whith Admin privs. Don't know if this makes a difference, but, my system is stable again. I haven't tweaked with it since Tuesday and it has been up since then. So the fix was either a loose connection with the Daughter card, or a loose connection with the (un-interleaved RAM) or not running the web browsers from and Admin enabled account. System Info: PowerMac 9600/200, G4/450 XLR8 MACh Carrier MPe, 384MB Interleaved, RAM, 4GB and 20GB SCSI Drives (OSX on 20GB drive), Radeon 7000 ME (slot B1), PCI SCSI Adpater (slot D2), PCI USB Adapter (slot E2), PCI FireWire Adapter (slot F2) One last thing; Classic (OS 9.1) runs fine. I haven't upgraded to 9.2 since it doesn't run on my machine without the use of os9 helper. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 05, 2002 6:59 PM |
michael587 |
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I started having freezes of the type described by gx77 s soon as I plugged my firewire hd into my firewire card. The connection is very clear. The system was very stable up to the point that I plugged in the drive and is very unstable whenever I plug it in. (I have a 7600 w 800 mh Sonnet upgrade, running 10.2.1. The card is a MacAlly usb/Firewire combo card.) |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 02, 2002 6:59 AM |
gx77 |
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I was typing a post to this forum about how my machine was more stable last night when it crashed. quite ironic... i tried disabling the l2 cache, and it hasn't crashed yet, although it's rediculously slow. i'm thinking that i just haven't used it enough though, so i'll go home tonite and try to make it crash by visiting this forum, etc. will report back with any success/failure. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 01, 2002 6:12 PM |
avaughs |
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I turned on remote access (sshd) and attempted to ssh into the crashed machine. It never responded to the ssh session request. I am able to ssh into the machine before the crash and after a restart. The next "fix" I'm going to try is reducing the speed of the L2 cache. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 01, 2002 11:58 AM |
gx77 |
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yeah. that's gonna be my next step. I've changed it from write-back to write-through (or vice-versa...) and that didn't help. I'm just gonna disable it and see how that works (other than making it slow). I believe i'm using the latest version of Powerlogix Cache Control, but i'll check again to see. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 01, 2002 9:36 AM |
kbata |
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It sure sounds like some kind of hardware problem. I did a search for freeze an jaguar and found a few threads on the issue. People seem to be looking at their RAM and their backside cache. I see that you have already looked into your ram. Have you upgraded your powerlogix cache control to the latest version? You could try disabling your backside or slowing it down to see if it helps. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 01, 2002 8:37 AM |
gx77 |
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no, it's a system freeze, not just loss of the ADB, cause i have the clock set to display seconds, and it stops ticking, letting me know it's a freeze and not just the ADB. another way i can tell also, hitting the power button when it's frozen shuts the computer off- when it's not frozen, it doesn't do anything. sorry if it sounds like i don't want to accept any of these options as what's causing my problem- i'm taking them all into consideration, and i'll probably try some of them when i get home. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 01, 2002 7:34 AM |
kbata |
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I wonder if it's just something knocking out your ADB bus and not the whole system. Have you tried to connect to your computer from a networked computer while it's frozen? I have never seen a hard freeze in any version of OS X that I've used except when I forgot to turn system sleep off and my USB keyboard and mouse got knocked out. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 01, 2002 7:23 AM |
gx77 |
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I'm gonna respond to most of the questions here: I use an ADB keyboard and mouse. I installed 10.2 from a CD onto a completely empty drive. I had previously upgraded a 10.1.5 installation to 10.2, and i experienced freezes with that too. I don't think the IBM drive is too hot- it's never frozen in ANY other OS but this, and i installed another fan specifically to cool the IBM Drive. My memory is occupying either 7 or 8 slots, but it's NOT interleaved. when i get a freeze, it's a HARD freeze, meaning the screen just freezes. no spinning cursor, no nothing. just a frozen screen that looks just like an unfrozen screen, but the mouse won't move. this website is unusable from my mac. i have to use my wintel laptop from work to access it (as i am now...) |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 01, 2002 6:20 AM |
kbata |
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When you guys get crashes are they just the program or the whole system? I have been using Omni Web and it crashes every now and then but the system never goes down. I haven't had any problems with this web site. |
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RE: is 10.2 freezing for anyone else? |
October, 01, 2002 3:30 AM |
avaughs |
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I experience crashes running IE and Navigator (Chimera 0.5). I get crashes accessing this website http://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/. I've de-interleaved RAM and still get crashes. G4/450/1MB XLR8 Mach Carrier MPe in a PMac 9600. Mac OS 10.2.1 (upgraded from 10.0). |