Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 19, 2003 12:16 PM |
sstein0808 |
I have managed to upgrade to Mac10.2.3 on my 7600/PowerforceG3-270/420Meg/motherboardVideo/motherboardScsi-Atlas10k-9gig/Apple 4x cd/ system. I love the new OS10, but just moving around with basic applications is quote pokey.I am considering upgrading the cpu to Sonnet's new 700/g4 at a cost of approx $300. After this upgrade, would adding a video card (approx $120 used) and/or a ultra scsi 160 controller (approx $200 used) make much of a further significiant improvement? eg. Is it worth the additional investment? Maybe just upgrading just the video or just the controller would provide the best non-pokey single improvement? Should I buy a Sonnet Ide 100 or 133 controller and ide drive instead of the scsi? And if so, what version and firmware will be compatable with the other upgrades? I am also worried about WHICH brands/models/firmware of video and controller cards are known to work with the new Sonnet 700/G4. I have read here that the Radeon 7000 mac edition video and the Apple/Atto or Atto UL2D ultrascsi 160 MIGHT be a combo that should work together. What versions with what firmware of specific additional equipment do you recommend if any? I would also like to replace my scsi Apple 4x cd with a DVD/cd that would allow Apple OS's to be bootable and installable. Again what brand/model and firmware will work with the upgrades contemplated above? Thanks for helping.I am trying to select equipment which have the most/best chance of working together. Ron |
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XbenchAtto results wrong?(was Upgrade7600Bestway) |
January, 27, 2003 8:56 AM |
sstein0808 |
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Marty: I don't know if I have the highest quality cable as it was include with the Apple/Atto controller. The cable says FOXCONN 080-0003-192 and has what appears to be a electronic 2" square-ish end on it. I did upgrade from 2.2.4 to 2.2.5 yesterday, but this didn't change the quirky results given just below in my previous mail. I also tried noting the bootup times taken both from the Fireball 4.3G drive on the motherboard scsi and the Atlas 10K drive on the Atto controller. There was no appreciable difference-both took approx 3 1/2 minutes to boot up. I even tried disconnecting the Fireball drive off the motherboard and it still got the same quirky xbench results again. I am at a loss as to why I am seeing a overall slight loss of speed. While it possible that a faster hd may have little effect on the overall speed, it very strange that xbench reports a lower overall score when using a high speed controller vs the motherboard builtin controller. |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 26, 2003 3:13 PM |
mjoecups358 |
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2.2.5 i meant... |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 26, 2003 3:09 PM |
mjoecups358 |
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Most of the highest quality SCSI cabling I have has termination built into the end of the cable so that TE on the drive isn't usually needed. I don't know about Xbench... but that seems strange. If the Atlas is your boot drive, you could time the startup both ways... If you plan to boot from the Ul2D you need to use Xpostfacto 2.5x(?) since 2.4 had an issue with this card... Marty |
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XbenchAtto results wrong?(was Upgrade7600-Bestway) |
January, 26, 2003 10:47 AM |
sstein0808 |
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Thanks Gord & Larry for further info to consider. Marty: Thanks for the detailed explanations about the differences between the 2 scsi controllers. I am not very technicial, so I am guilty of quickly jumping to the wrong conclusions just based on too little knowledge. This can be blamed on my human side. Quite coincidently, yesterday someone locally, very kindly offered to let me try a extra Apple/Atto UL2D (firmware 1.43i) that they weren't using at the moment. I jumped at the offer and I am testing this out as we speak. The results given by xbench were slightly confusing. Originally, I had two drives running off the motherboard scsi-the Atlas 10k 9gig and a old Quantum Fireball SE 4gig. The xbench disk score in this original configuration for the Atlas was 26.39 and the overall xbench score was 15.99. When I moved the Atlas onto the Atto controller and left the Fireball on the motherboard scsi, the xbench disk score for the Atlas increased to 49.15 (great) but the overall xbench scrore dropped to 13.73. I have rerun these tests now many times just to make sure that these results aren't a quirk. I don't want to jump to the wrong conclusions again but it almost appears as if this upgrade isn't making my overall machine faster. I probably should just ignore the overall results.Maybe there is something wrong with my scsi setup. (Both drives on their separate buses have the TE pin terminated. The Atlas also has "wide mode" enabled and "Force SE" disabled(LVD is therefore enabled). Ron |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 26, 2003 12:51 AM |
mjoecups358 |
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>So it seems for better hd speed that I should (a) buy the 29160N scsi ($120)"twice >as fast" according to Larrymc to use with my existing Atlas10k over the Atto scsi The 29160N is THEORETICALLY twice the badwidth of the ATTO UL2D. However, since the 29160N is supposed to allow for 160MB per second of throughput, while the UL2D card tops out at 80M per second, one has to realize THAT NO EXISTING SINGLE DISK DRIVE produces enough data to saturate even the lower UL2D. In other words, unless you plan on configuring a raid array of Ultra160 drives there is no benefit whatsoever to you in buying the 29160n. I have both these cards and can tell you there is no difference in performance measurable when using single drive setups. Plus the Ul2D is a 64Bit PCI card, so in future you could migrate it to a 64 bit PCI machine and get good throughput there too... Marty |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 25, 2003 6:35 AM |
larrymc |
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Ron, I think you were asking for my xbench results comparing my TiBooks 800(dvi), 1gb ram, 60 gb 5400 rmp travelstar against my modified 7600,,,the 7600 results are in ( )and I've mentioned in previous posts it's configuration in this thead. Note that my challenge was to use all the old parts I had layin around, but I did need to buy the g4 800 and the radeon7000. I als goot a UL2D, that I;ve installed t'inteThese tests are w/ X.2.3 on both macs.... CPU Test 89.67 (74.39) Thread Test 63.43 (38.43) Memory Test 107.31 (41.69) Quartz Graphics Test 104.71 (40.67) OpenGL Graphics Test 87.25 (95.62) User Interface Test 93.84 (37.87) Disk Test 57.11 (65.37) interesting, but not a real surprise to me. The challenge I'm working on now is taking my remaining upgrade parts and putting them in a PowerCenter Pro..no OSX, it'll run on 8.6 as a check printing server and backup for my secretary at work. |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 24, 2003 7:09 PM |
gordner |
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As to the Yamaha CRW8424 - I couldn't install OS 10.1 from it and had to put in the old stock drive. After the initial installation I installed the Yamaha again and it worked just fine. Also upgrading to Jaguar was possible from the Yamaha. But of course booting from the OS X CD won't work. |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 24, 2003 9:43 AM |
sstein0808 |
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Marty: About the NEED, you are 100% correct. I really don't need, its more like wanting. Atto UL2D is a scsi, ACard ATA66 is ide. I hope I got it straight this time. So it seems for better hd speed that I should (a) buy the 29160N scsi ($120)"twice as fast" according to Larrymc to use with my existing Atlas10k over the Atto scsi OR (b)buy the ACard ide ($55)and a new Western 40G 8M buffer ide drive($100). I agree with your preference of liking Powerforce over Sonnet since Powerforce is much more configurable all other things being equal. But it boils down to Powerforce g4-450 ($259) vs g3-800 vs g4-700 (both $300). I think the extra $40 would be worth the extra speed. But that leaves a g3 vs a g4. My guess is that speed wise I might be better off with the g4-700 which would also help with the OS10 in general operations and other altvec applications (PhotoShop etc). I also like the flexiblity of the Powerforce. This is not an easy choice. Gordner: Thanks for those xbench scores. It gives me some idea as to how much I can gain in speed. My present 7600 gives me a overall score of 15.6 so 52 might feel like 3 times faster! Wow. But this does all comes at a high cost. Your input about considering how much this speed will cost was very appropriate and very helpful to me! This now gives me some idea as to the 'value' of the contemplated investment. So while I agree that the new Imac would be a smarter investment, I have only one (small?) advantage in that I can add these components one at a time as I can afford. And it is fun to keep the old Mac useful. But needless to say who knows if the 7600 will be usable with newer Mac OS's coming out in future years. I will definately give this a little more thought. By the way, can your Yamaha 8224 cdrw bootable and can it install OS10 by itself? Thanks Marty/Gord? again for your valuable input. |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 24, 2003 2:19 AM |
mjoecups358 |
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I'm pretty sure computers are a bad investment... :~) |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 23, 2003 10:11 PM |
gordner |
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sstein - I've upgraded by 8600/200 with a Sonnet G4/800, a Radeon 7000, ATA 66 and a Western Digital 120 GB JB (I'm also using a Yamaha CRW 8224) and 1 GB of memory. It's probably as fast as you can go with this machine. The score on the latest version of XBench is ~ 52. The processor holds up nicely at 82, also the Radeon's Open GL score is o.k (~ 100). With the disk you are stuck at read of ~ 16 MB and write of ~ 32 MB, no matter what ATA-Card or HD you are using, so the disk score will be around 60. But memory (<30), Quartz Graphics and User Interface (~ 50) are limited by the system architecture, and there is no way around it regardless what upgrade path you choose. Now consider how much you'll have to invest. Reaching a XBench score of 52 with your machine would cost you around $ 900 (including a decent CD-RW). This will get you to a level close to the G4/700 iMac ($ 1199). But a Dual G4/867 ($ 1699) will be at least twice as fast. Saying that, my machine runs 10.2.3 pretty well and I did the upgrading just for the fun of it, trying to see how far I can go with my old companion. If your motive of upgrading is the same, it's o.k. But honestly a new machine would certainly be a smarter investment. |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 23, 2003 3:14 PM |
mjoecups358 |
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>Thanks Larry and Marty. It seems that you both agree not to go for the Mac Beige.I >will stick with my 7600 then. No Problem >Marty: I think the ide card was the Atto as you have said. No! the ATTO card is an Ultra 2 SCSI card. he Acard I recommended is IDE... >I was getting mixed up with Powerforce g4-450 and Sonnet g4-450. Powerforce is >selling for $259 and Sonnet is selling for $229. Sonnet's g4-700 is selling for $300. >The new g3-800 by Powerlogix should be selling for about $300-$350. It has an MSRP of $299 so it should sell for less then that (when it ships). > I assume you are recommending the Sonnet g4-450 card. No! I do not like Sonnet. There cards are "plug and play" as in they have no switches to fiddle with... As I am decidedly a fiddler, I prefer Powerlogix, ahich usually allows for bus speed/multiplier adjustment (ie over/under clocking). >I will need to see which card is worth the extra money. Not easy when there might >be only $70 difference. Larry: Looks like I will need all three upgrades. I Don't know about NEED. All three upgrades would give maximal performance. >Thanks for this advise. My Atlas is a 10k 68pin. A UL2D card like the one Larry is selling would be a good way to go since you have a fast/wide drive in hand already... >So after a quick look, I need: 1. Radeon 7000 Mac Edition approx $129 I think this is kind of a rip off personally, but you really don't have video card options. >2. Adaptec 29160n -ebay buy now $120 Probably overkill, talk to larry about his ATTO UL2D card it will cost way less. >3. Sonnet or Powerlogix G4 $229-$300 Before I decide, what results are you >getting with xbench and your 7600 OSX 10.2.3 setup (g4-800/29160n/Radeon >7000)? Yes, Larry has a maxed out box for sure... Good Luck, Marty PS why does posting here screw up my CRs? |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 23, 2003 10:00 AM |
sstein0808 |
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Thanks Larry and Marty. It seems that you both agree not to go for the Mac Beige.I will stick with my 7600 then. Marty: I think the ide card was the Atto as you have said. I was getting mixed up with Powerforce g4-450 and Sonnet g4-450. Powerforce is selling for $259 and Sonnet is selling for $229. Sonnet's g4-700 is selling for $300. The new g3-800 by Powerlogix should be selling for about $300-$350. I assume you are recommending the Sonnet g4-450 card. I will need to see which card is worth the extra money. Not easy when there might be only $70 difference. Larry: Looks like I will need all three upgrades. Thanks for this advise. My Atlas is a 10k 68pin. So after a quick look, I need: 1. Radeon 7000 Mac Edition approx $129 2. Adaptec 29160n -ebay buy now $120 3. Sonnet or Powerlogix G4 $229-$300 Before I decide, what results are you getting with xbench and your 7600 OSX 10.2.3 setup (g4-800/29160n/Radeon 7000)? Thanks both. This info is extremely helpful to me. Ron Stein |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 22, 2003 1:14 AM |
larrymc |
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I'm running 10.2.3 as solid as a rock and pretty darned quick on my 7600 w/ the Sonnet G4-800. I, too, have an Atlas 10k 9gig (LVD ultra160) from days gone by and I have the 29160N installed that I have also had for a long time. Xbench disk scores for my 5400 rpm 60gig in my Tibook 800 DVI is 57.11 and the same test w/ the 7600 setup is 65.37! That combination has twice the performance of the 10k connected to the UL2D (I also have a UL2D that I tried in this setup...good card, but 1/2 the speed w/ my drive). I recently bought the card from OWC, but didn't bother returning it (it's for sale :-) ). Lastly, do to little choice, I run my video thru a Radeon 7000 w/ Quartz extreme enabled. My suggestions...first the 7600 is a great box and the whole idea is to upgrade what you already have...it's perhaps MORE flexably upgradeable than the beige you spoke of. Secondly, I'm wondering if your 10k has the 68 pin connector because you said you had it connected to the internal scsi bus. If it's a 68 pin, I'd use it 'cause you already have it, but I'd run it thru a UL2D to save some money and still get good performance. If it's not a 68 pin, get an ATA card and IDE HD and continue running the 10k as you are now as a second drive, but check to see if others are having success w/ the coexistence of the 2 different drive types on upgraded legacies. If they CAN coexist, I'd put the 10k in the upper drive bay because they run hot. The Sonnet G4-700 is a better buy than the 800 I have...I'd go with that. I think you need all three elements to run X decently. Larry |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 21, 2003 5:16 PM |
mjoecups358 |
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Actually the firmware issue to which you refer is not the Acard but the ATTO. Confusing for sure... I knowe I bought a G4/450 PL: card from OWC for 229$ several months back, perhaps it was on clearance. I also want on of the yet to ship G3/800's and plan on ordering one as soon as possible. I had a sonnet G4/800 but it seemed shakey and I returned it. Also the performance didn't feel $170 faster then my G4/450 :~> It did rip some itunes at 10x though... Marty PS Beige G3's are really not so great. I think your existing hardware is better. It's certainly more upgradeable at the moment... Nothing haster then 533 for the beige yet. |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 21, 2003 5:51 AM |
sstein0808 |
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Marty, thanks for your recommendations. I really find the optinum and economical path to upgrading not very definative. Seems like there are lots of ways to do it. To make matters even harder, I can easily buy a beige g3 300Mhz with 128k and 6gig ide for about $200. I suppose that I could also use this instead of my 7600 as a base and then upgrade from there as a possible alternative. Getting back to your original recommendations, most available beiges around here do not have a Atto PCI scsi card in it to remove. (just ide). Further the pricing for a g4-450 Powerforce is really about the same price as either a G4-700 Sonnet OR a newly to be released G4-800 Powerlogix which will be available in about 2 more weeks.(Both about $300-$350). Apparently Powerlogix has said that they will be discontinuing the G4-450 shortly. And in terms of the Acard ATA66 ide card seems like a very good suggestion although I have read here that old firmware 1.43/1.44 is required instead of the current (1.64?) firmware. I don't really remember why at this moment and will need to reread messages as to why. |
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RE: Upgrade 7600-Bestway? |
January, 20, 2003 2:45 AM |
mjoecups358 |
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Don't bother paying $200 for ultra160 SCSI... You can but the Acard ATA66 card from OWC for $55 (about) and hang a big inexpensive IDE drive off of it, and you'll get as good performance... If you need Ultra Wide SCSI I recommend trying to find the ATTO Express PCI PSC card. I have one pulled from a beige G3, which is very solid and bootable and gets just as good speed as the 29160N (Adaptec) and the OEM ATTO UL2D that OWC sells. You could also run a DVD/CD combo drive off the aformentioned Acard IDE card... Don't think that would boot though... I would probably stick to the G4/450 upgrades since they are less $ and save your money for a newer box later on... If your kind of happy with what you have a G4/450 and a faster HD setup will probably work. The Radeon 7000 is the only available video card that helps at all and it's kind of unimpressive IMHO. The original Radeon PCI Mac edition is a little nicer but still pretty lame compared to MODERN video cards. I have a G4/450 Powerwave with UW SCSI and an original Radeon and it really is a nice solid, speedy machine under 10.2.3, although the audio remains sketchy, hopefully 10.2.4 fixes this? The audio problems also seem to crop up on supported hardware based on what I see over at Apple's discussions... Marty |