Apple shipped its first Thunderbolt-equipped machines (MacBook Pros) in February. The next batch of machines (iMacs) hit in May. And in July, we got treated to minis and MacBook Airs with this port as well.
People were/are excited: Thunderbolt promises fast data speeds, daisy-chaining of displays and devices, and reduced desktop clutter overall.
However, as of this writing, there’s only one Thunderbolt storage device that seems to be available. The only “Thunderbolt” displays you can currently use are the 2011 iMacs in display mode (though you can still connect to mini DisplayPort displays just fine) and Apple’s own offerings. Heck, the first actual Thunderbolt cables themselves were only made available in late June.
So what’s the hold up?
This isn’t just a matter of slapping another port on an enclosure via an Oxford chipset and calling it a day. There are a lot of factors that play into designing a Thunderbolt device.
The main one is Thunderbolt itself. This is a new interface paradigm, the technical details of which only recently became available. So while we knew it was coming, there really wasn’t a whole lot that we could do in the development process until that point.
So where does that leave us now? Sure, we could rush a product out the door based on new technology that’s not widely adopted/deployed. But there’s a big difference between “getting it out” and “getting it right” when it comes to product development. “Good enough” isn’t the way we like to do things here at OWC.
We’d rather take our time and build a solution from the ground up, using the best proven technology. Sure, we may not have the first product out the gate, but if/when we release a Thunderbolt-enabled storage solution, you can be sure it’s going to be the same kind of high-quality product you’ve come to expect from OWC.
And when we do, you can be sure you’ll hear about it first right here on the OWC Blog.
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Please tell me Thunderbolt peripherals will come out sometime this year. I promise you that I will buy a 2.5″ Thunderbolt HDD/SSD enclosure the day you release it.
Oops, didn’t see your comment about targeting a Summer 2012 release. Can’t wait!
I am beginning to wonder if Thunderbolt products are ever coming out. It’s now been 6 months since this post, and still nothing. Can you post an update on what’s going on? Has OWC decided not to make Thunderbolt peripherals after all?
We’re working on developing our own Thunderbolt-equipped solutions, and much like we did with our Solid State Drives, we may be a little late to the party, but boy…what an entrance we made and are now the life of the party ;-) Believe me when we say the wait will be worth it!
Any update on when we can expect thunderbolt drives? Looking at purchasing a new iMac and am wondering if changing my Final Cut workflow to Thunderbolt is realistic this year… Thanks, love your products!
Our best estimate is that we will be releasing the first of our own thunderbolt products in the summer of 2012.
Thanks for the reply. I’m curious as to your stance on Thunderbolt vs USB 3.0? Being a audio/video professional FireWire has always been more stable. USB from our end has a bad taste. Curious if thunderbolt becomes the next FireWire or if USB 3.0 makes a strong enough case…
The stability issues with USB 1.1 & 2.0 has always been throughput. At max you get 40MB/s and on many computer systems, other devices are already using some of that for built in webcams, microphone, media readers, optical drives, etc. before you even plug your drives and other peripherals into ports. With USB 3.0 making the jump to up to 500MB/s of throughput – there’s plenty of elbow room for everything now. We’re looking very forward to Apple adopting the USB 3.0 technology right along with Thunderbolt.
Thunderbolt on the other hand also has the potential of providing some impressive throughput speeds – along with your video signal to a monitor. In Apple’s ever vigilant battle against clutter – it seems that they are of the mindset that multiple ports on computers are their next target. Full adoption of Thunderbolt technology would allow them to eventually replace many of the ports on your computer into just one.
Honestly, I don’t see that full adoption happening for a few machine iterations though as the peripheral support just isn’t there yet. Manufacturers and designers are only just recently coming out with the first iterations of their TB products and others are still deep in the development process.
I don’t know how intensive your A/V workflow is or how often you’re adding and improving your equipment, but if you need the additional speed and stability now rather than waiting a few years, adding a USB 3.0 PCIe card to your system and attaching a few external drive solutions just makes sense to increase your current productivity while waiting for the next big thing.
Waiting for an Other World Computing Thunderbolt SSD Elite Pro mini with Mercury EXTREME Pro 6G performance, and dual Thunderbolt ports (for future daisy chaining). I would buy a 240GB Thunderbolt Elite Pro mini right now if it were released at or under $375.
What is needed is an adapter that will convert a thunderbolt output to enable both a display port output for a screen but MAINTAIN the thunderbolt port for hard rives and other thunderbolt peripherals for as of now, with my monitor attached as it must be to the iMac, I lose the use of thunderbolt entirely..a really terrible failure on the part of Apple may i say…I should not have to dump a 30 inch monitor to access thunderbolt and a peripheral. It is a no brainer to produce a sort of splitter device that gives one a data port AND a graphics capable port or at the least a thunderbolt splitter.
I’m hoping you’ll make a portable TB single-SSD enclosure, with a firewire (& usb?) port included (and 2nd TB port, of course). Hopefully, the firewire port could be used as the input OR output; i.e. i could hook the drive up to a non-TB FW computer. Or if I hook it up to a TB computer, the FW port is available to the TB computer as if it were a hub.
The lack of Firewire is what is preventing me from moving to a Macbook Air, because my audio interfaces are all firewire…
With a good Thunderbolt dock, I wouldn’t have to buy a Mac Pro, so the dock could possibly be costly and still save me a ton of money. And could be way more convenient.So, curiously enough although, no such hub existed on the time, nevertheless Belkin not too long ago showcased their upcoming Thunderbolt Dock.
Belkin Statement Regarding New Thunderbolt Express Dock: “Belkin is currently developing products that utilize and showcase Thunderbolt’s features and speak to our end consumers’ needs. We are excited by the attention the sneak peak of our Thunderbolt Express Dock generated at last week’s Intel Developers Forum; however the product on display was an early prototype and is not slated to launch until spring 2012.”
It is a pity that Apple jerks its loyal customer base around by delivering “new” technology that will only hook up to their monitor and not make available any adapters. Of course one could spend several hundred to get a Thunderbolt raid box that is available but that is not the point – Apple should have provided (even if slightly expensive) Thunderbolt to USB3, USB2, eSATA and FW400/800 adapters out the door. I honestly find it hard to believe that Apple could not (along with Intel) create these adapters in a timely manner rather than making everyone wait (including OWC) for the goods.
I guess what I have said in the past is true –
Windows holds the PC world hostage and Mac computers hold the operating system hostage and we all lose out.
You would think that Apple would have learned from FW debacle that people will more likely be willing to settle for less fast connections if they have easier availability – USB 2/3 and eSATA.
Boy there’s a lot of testosterone in here boys!
Let me provide a little female common sense… If you needed ways faster storage than the Mac you bought why did you buy it in the first place.
Budget? Or was thunderbolt the tipping point which enabled you to purchase a lesser Mac?
Just a thought with a question. And in advance… I’m not single and not interested ;)
It may be a man’s world but us women own it!
Hooray…another perspective! Glad to have you here Tribbles! Obviously you’re a Trekkie ;-)
Testosterone? Re-read your own post – it is rather aggressive and one-sided. How does Thunderbolt allow one to buy a lesser Mac? There are four computers in the whole Apple orchard, and the Mac Pro (the only “greater” Mac) is not the be-all-end-all machine of which the other Macs are deformed siblings. Thunderbolt is an odd gesture toward a brighter future. I bought a maxed out Macbook Air 11 and iMac 27″ for a $5000 total bill. I could have bought any Mac for that amount, but I’m still going to complain about Thunderbolt. It’s not because I’m trying to make the Mac cheaper, it’s because I want to use my computing engines to their fullest. Apple is LAME for not providing high speed I/O. I realize for them it’s a complicated mix of esthetics and control, but they Thunderbolt’s promise is FAILING because of it. I want a way to connect to fast local storage and have fast network access (10GbE) and have that expenditure *independent* of my computer. Each functional area (computer, peripheral, network) unbound from the other except via software. That is the Thunderbolt promise, but it is not delivering because Apple sometimes (this time) holds its cards too tightly.
Have you guys completely missed the fact that Thunderbolt is Intel’s tech? Sure, Apple contributed to it and is an early adopter, but any holdups on compatible devices is hardly Apple’s fault.
Spent 5k on a maxed out iMac and air? Nice. looks like you overPaid by about a grand. Did you upgrade through Owc or pay the apple inflated prices?
Aggressive? Sure whatever.. I still don’t get all the whining about thunderbolt. When you bought your macs there were no bolt drives out and any that were coming were rumored.
So did you think that once you bought a tbolt Mac that magically bolt would appear on the market. Like any new interface it’ll come out soon. Just not yet.
While I could NOT wait for OWC to come out with an SSD for the new 2011 iMac before purchasing, I CAN and WILL wait for OWC Thunderbolt storage. I was disappointed that my 256GB iMac (Apple) SSD has a Link Speed of 6 Gigabit but only a Negotiated Link Speed of 3 Gigabit. I have the 2 TB drive for my media storage but am looking forward to Thunderbolt connected SSDs from OWC to enable even faster development & work.
So, “if/when”, I’ll be there!
Just was wondering if there is any chance at all of for the new MacBook Airs to have the ram upgraded to 8gb. Know that the ram chip is soldered in but will the system itself be able to use and process 8gb of ram? So if in the future some smart techie figures out way to unsolder and then replace 4gb chip with 8gb cup will it work?
From everything we’ve seen, the RAM simply isn’t upgradeable. With it being incorporated into the motherboard itself, there’s no easy way to remove and test without risking damage to the entire computer.
OK gang….we gotta bring down the tone a bit here and refrain from personal comments. I do appreciate the passion, the desire for knowledge, etc. but we gotta do it in a civil way. Everyone has their unique communication style, but if we start to have attacks here on the blog, we’re going to not post those type of comments.
I’m sure you’ve read other forums where several people just start going off on one another and after awhile, it gets a bit tedious and then you start not wanting to visit that forum. We don’t want that to happen here…so on all accounts, THINK before you post whether it be a question or a reply to someone else’s comment.
I for one do believe that “we can all get along”.
Thanks!
One other comment…would be interesting if a Thunderbolt MiniStack could offer an optical drive. Of course there are good arguments to be made to include on optical drive and good arguments to NOT to include that.
(In a perfect world there would be an MiinStack option with and without the optical drive, but I understand that from a volume/manufacturing standpoint why it would make sense to just offer one option or the other…)
Whoda: it seems fairly clear to me. They mentioned customer excitement, pre lease information, and that they would not release a product until they were happy with it. This implies, at least to me, that they are investigating it, and that they are not yet happy with what they can produce. We have no way of knowing whether it is the interface chips, the designs, the throughput of what they can create, or the cost of the resulting product that is the binding constraint. I doubt, though, that they are about to announce a release date when there is a technical hurdle in the way, nor, were I them, would I state that I was dropping the product just a short time after it got introduced.
I certainly would consider a drive dock with a thunderbolt interface, but since it has to compete with a $30 usb 3 dock I already own, it is not clear whether _they_ would want to produce one at the present cost given what it has to compete with.
Whoda: having read your _second_ reply, it seems likely that we are looking at it the same way.
Agreed. I think we are looking at it the same. I am just curious as to the technical issues OWC, and everyone else, is facing when trying to implement this new port.
It doesn’t appear though, that I/we will be getting that answer. More than likely because there is no technical issue, there is a business model issue. I can’t help but notice that most of OWC drives are made with 4 ports, eSATA, FW800/400 and USB, even when they would be completely unnecessary. LIke a USB or FW port on a RAID array or on a external SSD. No matter what your maxed at the FW/USB speed, so unless you have eSATA, which no Macs ship with, then why would you ever buy one of these drives? I can get the Elite Pro Mini and get the same speeds as something with 10 times the price (again, with no eSATA but even with eSATA, what would you do with a SATA 3 SSD drive in an external enclosure – Better eSATA speeds and WAY more storage with an Elite Pro Qx2. Like 960 GB vs 12 TB at half the cost!).
They must have their production line set up in a way that makes it easy and cheap to produce their quad port options. Makes total sense as a business. Along comes TB and now they have to retool their entire production line. Not only that but they really need to put two TB ports on the drives, not just one (daisy chain) so that adds to the cost and may eliminate the ability to have all those ports simply because there isn’t enough room.
I just wish they could take off their salesman hats, and put on their techie hats and tell us that. I can accept an answer like, “we have to retool our line”. What I don’t like is, “its a whole new paradigm”. Please. The chord still plugs into a port, right? Not a new paradigm, just a new port.
Whoda: If your such a quote genius on business models and understanding how a product gets developed than why are you desperate for answers? For someone who talks like a tech wizard you sure don’t know much on a product gets developed and introduced. There is more to a product than price, yes it’s an important factor but much more factors to consider. Why don’t you take your smartass hat off and enquire to more research. Who are you to question a company known for support and quality products? Being rude doesn’t get you anywhere. I recommend you do additional research on TB instead of blaming it on a business model. There are reasons there is one enclosure available.
Well Todd, in the spirit of civility, let me explain.
Whoda: If your such a quote genius on business models and understanding how a product gets developed than why are you desperate for answers?
Well Todd, some of us thrive for knowledge. If I was a genius on these things you speak of, wouldn’t I already have the answers? Why am I desperate for answers? I like to know things, sorry. If you don’t seek the same kind of answers what, may I ask, are you doing on the OWC blog?
For someone who talks like a tech wizard you sure don’t know much on a product gets developed and introduced.
Well Todd, what would a tech wizard know about production and marketing? And thanks, good to know I talk like a tech wizard, ironically it couldn’t be farther from the truth.
There is more to a product than price, yes it’s an important factor but much more factors to consider.
Well Todd, price, imho, is always the primary factor considered in production, its why mass production exists – because its cheaper to make things in bulk, everything else is secondary. Take a decision science class. (Or honestly any class you can get your hands on.) I honestly think OWC, does a fairly good job walking the line here. Obviously they are in business to make a profit, but their business seems to thrive off their customer service and their dispersion of information, this blog being a prime example.
Why don’t you take your smartass hat off and enquire to more research.
Well Todd, I kind of do consider this research. I actually get to question experts in the field I’m interested in. (By the way, make that class we talked about earlier a spelling class.)
Who are you to question a company known for support and quality products?
Well Todd, I’m the customer.
Being rude doesn’t get you anywhere.
My apologies to OWC for any rude tone. It was certainly not my intention to be “rude”. Now it was/is my intention to question whether the delay in TB products are due to technical issues with TB itself or whether it is an issue with OWC’s production capabilities or profit margins. As a consumer, I believe it is my right to ask these kind of questions and I don’t consider it rude in anyway to do so.
My question for you Todd, is why aren’t you asking more questions? Is it because you have all the answers or lack the desire to find them?
OK…that’s fairly even toned. And fwiw….really, we don’t talk much here about profit, bottom line, sales goals, etc. We…well Larry always did… and us grizzled veterans in the business wars realized it too and maybe why we stay here….is that if you take care of the customer better than anyone else and build a great product, the rest of the equation (meaning the bottom line) will pretty much take care of itself. Certainly more soul fulfilling with that approach than looking at numbers first and then figuring how to hit them.
And cool you calling us experts!
Look, I can break down and analyze also, aren’t we cool?
-Well Todd, some of us thrive for knowledge. If I was a genius on these things you speak of, wouldn’t I already have the answers? Why am I desperate for answers? I like to know things, sorry. If you don’t seek the same kind of answers what, may I ask, are you doing on the OWC blog?
Let me get this straight, your way to thrive for knowledge is to question a company’s ethics by stating it is business related only when you know nothing about the manufacturing of a BRAND NEW technology such as thunderbolt? I like to seek knowledge as well, hence why I read this blog. The difference is I don’t post comments questioning a company and telling them to take their salesman hats off.
-Well Todd, price, imho, is always the primary factor considered in production, its why mass production exists – because its cheaper to make things in bulk, everything else is secondary. Take a decision science class. (Or honestly any class you can get your hands on.) I honestly think OWC, does a fairly good job walking the line here. Obviously they are in business to make a profit, but their business seems to thrive off their customer service and their dispersion of information, this blog being a prime example.
Please don’t preach to me on mass production. As someone who works in the IT field for a Fortune 500 company I am nowhere near an expert but well informed on the cost. I would preach for you to read up on Thunderbolt. The fact Intel only recently shared full technical specs. Look into the cost of manufacturing a port that supports two 10Gbit/s bi-directional channels on a common transport for 40Gb’s throughput. On top of a technology that supports PCI Express and DisplayPort protocols.
-My question for you Todd, is why aren’t you asking more questions? Is it because you have all the answers or lack the desire to find them?
I don’t need to ask questions as I do research on my end. I don’t question a companies strategy and state “there is no technical issue, there is a business model issue.” I apologize if my statement came off as blunt but honestly it is not different from all your posts.
Are you guys thinking of working on thunderbolt adapters i.e thunderbolt to usb 3.0 or thunderbolt to esata?
Thunderbolt to USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt to eSATA adapters are not outside the realm of possibility, but OWC does not have any at this time.
Regarding adapters, my whole production setup uses Firewire 800, which I often interface into via my (now aging laptop). Any chance of a Thunderbolt-to-FW800 adapter? Ever?
I’m sorry, but we can’t divulge information regarding the feasibility, development status or projected release date of future products.
When we do come out with new products, they will always be announced here on the OWC Blog right away, so bookmark us to be among the first informed on new products from OWC and Newer Technologies.
Not announcing a product before it is ready for release? Wow. Seems to me that you announced the Mercury Extreme Pro 6G well before you could/would/should release it… :-) Remember?
Not quite sure what you’re referring to. The Mercury Extreme Pro 6G was released when the product was ready.
Not trying to pick a fight, but weren’t they announced and available for pre-order long before they were ready?
Depends on how you’re looking at that. It’s quite common to see items available for pre-order. That doesn’t mean the product wasn’t put through its paces and final production specifications hadn’t been solidified.
In this instance, smaller capacities were available immediately (or almost immediately) while production of the larger capacities took a bit longer. The 480GB version was definitely a pre-order as the mass production of the drive was not completed at the time we announced the entire line, but that’s not the same as a product itself not being ready before announcement.
If Michael’s situation was similar to mine, it took about a month for mine to ship. Then once I got it, I was offered a replacement due to a firmware issue when waking my MBP from sleep. So the time from when it was announced to when it was delivered was actually quite long.
The Promise RAIDs look nice, but only 1 of my 4 Macs have Thunderbolt. Until it is time to upgrade them all, I am not really interested in a RAID solution that has Thunderbolt and no other connectivity. Gigabit ethernet, FW800 or USB is a necessity for my other machines.
What if it had thunderbolt AND all the other connections you love. Then you could buy tech now, and when it was time to upgrade the other Macs, you’d have one less expense to upgrade.
Not all of my Macs are 2011 either, but eventually they’ll all have one!
Yet another reason why OWC rocks. :-)
They usually have multiple port options on their enclosures.
Long form: The practical upshot of the article above is that when we have a TB product ready to announce (i.e., ready to ship), we’ll let you know. ‘Til then, we really can’t comment on it.
It doesn’t do anybody a whole lot of good to announce a product before we’re ready to release it. As with any product, sometimes elements in a production development timetable wind up pushing back or completely canceling a project. Nobody can accurately predict these developments 100% of the time, so rather than making promises we may not be able to keep, it behooves us all to wait until all our metaphorical ducks are in a row before announcing anything.
Short form: Sorry, but we’re not gonna comment on potential future product before they’re ready..
Pop culture reference form: Orson Welles said it best: http://youtu.be/bpj0t2ozPWY
:-)
But can you comment on the technical hurdles that you are currently faced with, trying to implement this new paradigm?
What inside info u exactly want? Or ru just soapboxin fo fun?
Apple sells bolt drives right now. 1k and up = ouchie in my pocketbook
What exact specs do u want? You going to run and fix the hurdles? Why don’t you ask intel on that if you thrive such knowledge Whoda? The reason you are hard on OWC is because you believe you know all when in reality your far off. Do you see any other major companies with thunderbolt? There is a reason for that, I recommend you do research before you troll away on a blog.
Many of us know that announcing a product that isn’t ready to ship isn’t a good idea.
We just want to hear the geeky stuff about what the OWC engineers have to say about dealing with the development. :-)
Something I would be interested in hearing would be limitations they ran into. Like can a thunderbolt hub run multiple monitors. (I know the Mac’s graphics chip can only do so much.)
Or what crazy amount of devices via adapters have they gotten to work off of a prototype hub. :-)
And to explain why I’m so focused on hubs….
My Mac mini desktop has 8 USB devices, 6 fw800 drives and 2 monitors. So far.
Sounds like you need a new Mac instead of tbolt
Man that must look like an octopus!
U lookin for bolt to replace yo 6 fe drives?
Maybe I’m crazy or my Alzheimer’s is back, but I thought that someone from OWC commented on one of the blog posts that they would not have a thunderbolt product till 2012.
BTW, what’s the status on upgrading the 2011 iMacs HDs, and SSD.
Do you know who is sourcing the thunderbolt hub in the new Thunderbolt Cinema Display? Can they add USB 3 for a minor premium.
We can guess that Apple won’t upgrade the Thunderbolt Cinema Display to USB 3 display till 2013 but it would be nice to be surprised. Or Apple could have USB 3 in there and not advertise it or offer a firmware upgrade…
Not that I’m dying for USB 3 but since it is supported by everyone but Apple, why would I want slow USB on a thunderbolt display in 2011 when I had slow USB on my $1299 20″ Apple Cinema Display in 2003.
I’m sure the OWC guys are just as frustrated as the rest of us.
Thanks for all your hard work OWC.
I can appreciate te get it right attitude. It’s too bad appletel didn’t release the bolt to drive makers so stuff could be out with their new computers.
What a missed opp by apple. People are obviously psyched about it.
Although I don’t need it… Da bolt seems cool.
I’m actually more interested in the multimonitor capability than storage. Raid is fast, but it can hurt if you can’t afford a backup to match the capacity. Essentially, if I buy a raid box, I should really buy 2 so I can actually back it up. Unless of course it’s just a scratch disk for temp storage. But I haven’t needed that temp storage for a while.
Interesting computing times indeed are ahead.
Just curious… What would everyone else use their tbolt mega drives for?!
Intel owns Thunderbolt, not Apple. Intel — not Apple — coulda/shoulda released the Thunderbolt spec to accessory makers earlier, so that products could be ready sooner.
Nope. Not buying that. Appletel had tight technical collab to bring it to market. This is one instance where apple being super secret hurts. Guarantee they had it six months to one year beforehand.
I won’t apologize for apple or intel. Not that they’re evil… After all everyone is really arguing that they want more bolt goodness.
Intel and apple have been tightly woven since intel partnered strong with apple for processors since intel wanted access to apples ip on multiprocessing. That’s why apple gets a couple months lead time on intel processors… So apple that knowledge to thunderbolt and we can wish and dream that we got bolt earlier bit alas we’ll soon bask in the light of externals as fast as internals for the common man.
Now… What will we do with this new found capability.
Yeah! A Thunderbolt post! :-)
Does that mean the NDA has lifted on OWC discussing the tech?
Any indication as to whether Thunderbolt PCIx cards will be available?
Intel has said in the past that they are not possible; that there are things required in the motherboard to support Thunderbolt that make it impossible for computers without Thunderbolt to have it.
It would be awesome if that were wrong, though.
A Thunderbolt PCIe card should NOT be a problem. It takes time to engineer and manufacture ANYTHING new, but it’s important to note that Thunderbolt hardware and drivers * combine * PCI Express and DisplayPort into a new single interface. So essentially the PCIe protocol and compatibility is already there! (Very different story if you are trying to make a TB-to-FireWire or TB-to-SCSI adaptor.)
So from a compatibility and speed standpoint, I expect that TB PCIe cards should be _relatively_ easy to engineer, and that TB breakout boxes will work very well.
Would LOVE to see a Thunderbolt miniStack!
Imagine suddenly being able to add 2TB and 3TB drives (and additional ports) to a new mini, with a vastly-faster-than-ever-before connection!
BTW Sonnett has announced Thunderbolt-PCIe breakout boxes, for both sizes of cards. Can daisy-chain up to six of ’em.
Is this to imply that we’ll be seeing something in the next six months? Can we expect to see Thunderbolt versions of the Elite Pro and Elite Pro Mini enclosures within twelve months?
Well I think its only fitting I post first on this one!
Let me first note the “if/when” statement…. this is different than the normal, its coming in early 2012. Are there now plans to just scrap the whole thing and stick with the normal quad interfaces?
Any chance of an article that details the challenges of implementing this new interface paradigm? The fact that it IS a new interface paradigm is not really informative. Obviously there must be some serious “technical” hurdles. Does it require a totally new chipset? Are you running into bottlenecks?
I think the reason I’m so hard on OWC is that you folks are Mac people, and you specialize in internal/external storage options with a plethora of interfaces. If there was ever an opportunity for OWC to pick up the ball and run with it…
Its kind of hard to make a technology “proven” if everyone refuses to adopt it.